Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : John Iwaniszek Date : Wed Sep 28 2005 05:19:23 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: > Ken McElhaney wrote: >> >> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: >>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>> >>>> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: >>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>> John I wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> In other news, when I was watching 210, I was struck by the >>>>>>> subtext surrounding the different ways the Fascist side treated >>>>>>> their prisoner, versus the way that Galactica treated hers. It >>>>>>> seemed remarkably coincidental with the new revalations about >>>>>>> the Abu Ghraib atrocities: http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r > >>>>>>> From the HRW report (http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "....Detainees at FOB Mercury were held in so-called "PUC >>>>>>> tents"....The torture of detainees reportedly was so widespread >>>>>>> and accepted that it became a means of stress relief for >>>>>>> soldiers. Soldiers said they felt welcome to come to the PUC >>>>>>> tent on their off-hours to "Fuck a PUC" or "Smoke a PUC." >>>>>>> "Fucking a PUC" referred to beating a detainee, while "Smoking a >>>>>>> PUC" referred to forced physical exertion sometimes to the point >>>>>>> of unconsciousness." >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, the crimes committed by the guards at Abu Graib are >>>>>> serious and should be delt with severely. As for the total scope >>>>>> of what they did compared to what Saddam did to his people; >>>>>> http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> ..is like comparing a drop of water to the Atlantic Ocean. >>>>>> Ken > >>>>> It's one thing to stack up Saddam's crimes against the war's >>>>> civilian casualties. [Although time will tell how the Iraqis >>>>> ultimately perceive the cost-benefit ratio, given how >>>>> incompetently we've handled things.] > >>>> Considering that 80% of Iraqis are either Kurdish or Shia, I think >>>> they'll look at the cost-benefit ratio a lot better than you >>>> believe. Was the US "incompetent"? Maybe. Would the Kurds 'n Shia >>>> like to go back to the good ol' days of Saddam? I highly doubt it. >>>> Why not ask a relative of someone killed by Saddam's troops if the >>>> totality of our "incompetence" is on the same scale. > >>> Too early to tell. We don't yet know the results of our >>> incompetence - whether things will turn out OK or Iraq will end up >>> mired in a bloody civil war, under Taliban-type rule, etc. > >> Too early to tell? The prison scandel has been public knowledge for >> quite a while. The Shia usually protest in large numbers (as they did >> in late 2003) when something upsets them. So far, no large scale (or >> for that matter, ANY major reaction) protests have happened. > > > Huh? I never argued that the prison scandal will tip Iraqi opinion > one way or the other. "Too early to tell" refers the incompetent way > we have run this war and the resulting potential for bad outcomes (see > my next new paragraph below). The prison scandal is a separate issue > that really has little to do with Iraq. > > >> It is true that it's too early to tell if Iraq will form a decent, >> represenative democracy. As for our incompetence, it is not as >> important as the Kurds 'n Shia participation in the new government. > > The type of democracy is the least of my worries. > > The incompetence I refer to are all of our missteps - lack of > sufficient troops, lack of planning for "nation building," etc. that > has resulted in the massive increase in insurgents (now estimated at > 18,000) and foreign fighters (now estimated at 900), etc. There may > come a day when the average Iraqi feels that the slaughter of innocent > civilians by the insurgents and foreign fighters and the general chaos > in Iraq makes life as miserable as it was under Saddam. And if the > worse case scenario comes true - if Iraq ends up mired in a civil war > and the entire region destabilizes (e.g., Iran steps in to help the > Shia, Syria steps in to help the Sunnis, the Kurds secede and Turkey > goes after them, etc.) everyone will regret that we ever went after > Saddam. If instead Iraq ends up a stable country, you'll be right and > my worries will have been for naught. But we don't know yet. > > >>>>> But whatever Saddam did has no relation whatsoever to our >>>>> treatment of prisoners of war. >>>> >>>> I point it out because it keeps getting lost in the arguement. That >>>> somehow everything in Iraq was peachy-keen (like Moore's depiction >>>> of Iraqis flying kites in his film "Farenheit 911") until we showed >>>> up. Again, ask the Kurds 'n Shia (who rarely appear on tv since >>>> almost all the violence is happening in Sunni territory) if the >>>> United States is just as bad or even in the same ballpark as >>>> Saddam. >>>> >>>>> All we've done with regard to POWs is severely damaged ourselves >>>>> -- our ability to sanction other countries for mistreating >>>>> prisoners and our ability to object if any of our own soldiers are >>>>> taken prisoner in some future war. >>>> >>>> Since we are fighting terrorists, do you think they'll negotiate >>>> over treatment of prisoners? Do you think that those who only seek >>>> our destruction will somehow be nice to captured soldiers? > >>> I don't mean the "War on Terror" or simply the Iraqis' opinion of >>> us. Who knows what future situations we will find ourselves in. The >>> bottom line is that, worldwide, we no longer have the moral >>> authority to complain about any country's treatment of prisoners, >>> and that includes the treatment of our own soldiers if taken >>> prisoner. That's why McCain and others are so upset over this. > >> Since the future cannot be accurately predicted (as anyone looking at >> sports bets can attest to), to say we no longer have "moral >> authority" is a crock. Perhaps to ourselves, but to think that if we >> did fight North Korea for example that Kim Jung Il would either >> torture American prisoners or not based on Abu Ghraib is silly to say >> the least. > > > I never said that our moral authority would stop evil countries from > mistreating prisoners. Losing our moral authority means we can no > longer credibly complain about/criticize the way other countries treat > prisoners of war. > > >>>>> Be sure to read the URL John posted. http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r. It >>>>> is now obvious that this goes way beyond Abu Graib - that it was >>>>> widespread and that the military is still trying to cover it up. >>>> >>>> At least its a mainstream paper this time. And while the military >>>> may be trying to cover it up, there appears to be NO evidence from >>>> the article that this was standard policy or that anyone high up >>>> ordered the mistreatment of prisoners. >>>> >>>> "Some soldiers beat prisoners to vent their frustrations, one >>>> sergeant said," >>>> >>>> That many of these incidents happened while soldiers were in an >>>> unsupervised situation and most of them happened before Abu Graib >>>> became public knowledge. >>>> But again, in this country we have the press who digs deep, reveals >>>> these mistreatments and brings them to light. Did the same thing >>>> happen in Iraq under Saddam? >>>> Ken > >>> I am in no way equating our country or our behavior with Saddam's. >> >> Good. Thanks for recognizing that fact as it puts these events in >> their proper place. > > > It should have been evident to you from my first post. I said from > the beginning that the prison scandal should not be compared to > Saddam's behavior, that the danger of the prison scandal was to *us*. > The only thing I have equated with Saddam's behavior is the outcome > if Iraq falls apart, which will result in more misery for Iraqi > civilians. > > >>> I know from long experience working for the state and for large >>> organizations that when higher ups tacitly condone certain behavior, >>> it becomes widespread. When higher ups condemn such behavior, >>> monitor their staff, and do whatever they can to stop it, bad >>> behavior is rare, reported by others, and can be curbed. > >> As is happening according to the very New York Times story that you >> 'n John cited. >> Unlike most countries, we own up to our mistakes in public. Everyone >> gets to hear about it and those found guilty go to jail. I think this >> is a case of you 'n John wanting more people to be "outraged" but are >> not. Perhaps because every major conflict in American history has >> had cases of prisoner abuse (Andersonville prison, Civil War) or the >> killing of innocents (Me Lai, Vietnam). Perhaps because Americans in >> general understand that war is not clean or civil and can bring out >> the worst in people. Bush and his administration may say one thing, >> but most people understand that such abuses have happened in the past >> and will happen again. What separates the United States from most >> countries is that we have an active, dillegent press the brings these >> incidents to light. > > You're missing my point. I don't want more people to be outraged. I > want the *superiors* who allowed this to happen to be punished, not > just the lowly grunt who was doing what he/she was allowed to. And I > don't equate what happens in a prison (an environment we have control > over) with things that happen out in the field (e.g., Mi Lai). > > >>> The only way to regain credibility and moral authority in the eyes >>> of the world is to go after the superiors who allowed this to >>> happen. And that is not happening. > >> Considering the vast amount of crimes committed by every country >> during warfare is at least equal, if not much greater than we have >> ever committed (Germany, Japan, Russia, shall I go on?), I'm less >> concerned with our "moral authority" standing as I am with staying on >> the path that will eventually bring down Islamic-based terrorism. >> The Kurds 'n Shia who will run Iraq is a start in a decades-long >> struggle in this conflict. Even if we do everything "perfectly",it >> will take decades to rid the world of the kind of terrorism. >> Ken > > Yes, all sorts of bad things happen in the chaos of war. But as I said > above, the one place where we actually have the power to stop those > things from happening is in the controlled atmosphere of a prison. > > Shorter Ken: "We still aren't as bad as the Nazis." What a moron. My Lai. 504 subdued and unarmed civilians (women and children) gunned down systematically over a period of a few hours. It was a war crime and it was a controlled setting. The soldiers made a choice and they chose murder. Not every American in attendance approved and, like at Abu Ghraib, there were some who were shocked by the barbarism and tried to stop it. Good for them. The ones who did it and the people who covered it up and make excuses for it are criminals. .