Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : weirdwolf Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 23:18:59 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape Mark Morrison wrote in news:augjj15ss1eeuffft9fb4ebqe1859slnmp@4ax.com: > On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:00:32 GMT, weirdwolf wrote: > >>"Ken McElhaney" wrote in >>news:1127850957.250010.22460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: >> >>> >>> John I wrote: >>>> Jim Larson wrote: >>>> >>>> > Nick wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Jim Larson wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> Nick wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Nick wrote: >>>> >>>>>> John I wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> Nick wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Be sure to read the URL John posted. >>>> >>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r. It is now obvious that this goes >>>> >>>>>>>>> way beyond Abu Graib - that it was widespread and that the >>>> >>>>>>>>> military is still trying to cover it up. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> A lot of that is really bad but some of these things I look >>>> >>>>>>>> at and think, so what? For example: "Detainees were also >>>> >>>>>>>> stacked, fully clothed, in human pyramids and forced to hold >>>> >>>>>>>> five-gallon water jugs with arms outstretched or do jumping >>>> >>>>>>>> jacks until they passed out, the report says." >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> This stuff looks like really mild fraternity initiation >>>> >>>>>>>> rituals or even high-school football practice. >>>> >>>>>>>> Breaking bones and beatings are one thing, but this other >>>> >>>>>>>> stuff is laughable. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Trun off Rush radio. It is a proven fact that it will >>>> >>>>>>> actually make you dumber. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> So you have been listening to it, eh? >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Actually, I don't listen to political radio. >>>> >>>>>> But I did go to catholic school and military basic training >>>> >>>>>> and have had to do similar things to these. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I'm pretty sure this wasn't training or trust exercises. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Neither was mine. Holding items with your arms out was standard >>>> >>>> school punishment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> In a highly controlled situation, where you knew on some >>>> >>> instinctual level that there was oversight and that it would >>>> >>> never go too far. I strongly doubt that you ever feared Sr. Mary >>>> >>> Frances would break your wrists if you dropped the books you were >>>> >>> holding. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> True, but we are comparing elementary school kids to terrorists >>>> >> and insurgents. I would expect the treatment to be a little >>>> >> tougher than it is on the kids. >>>> > >>>> > Only if those being treated tougher are actual terrorists and >>>> > insurgents rather than just random brown-skinned people. Guantanamo >>>> > may be a different situation. In Iraq, however, I would bet that a >>>> > sizeable percentage of those arrested just had the misfortune of >>>> > being picked up for some reason. >>>> > >>>> > But this is beside the point. What are we doing there? Are we >>>> > trying to foster democracy, or are we an occupying army free to >>>> > ignore our own laws and sense of decency when it's convenient? If >>>> > you were a random Iraqi whose relative, terrorist or not, had just >>>> > had his legs broken by the nice Marine Sergeant over there, what >>>> > would your gut reaction to this question be? >>>> > >>>> >>>> I thought we were there because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction >>>> and they were getting ready to attack the US. >>> >>> That's what Bush emphisized and you've taken to heart as the ONLY >>> reason. Problem is, people in this country have the capacity to think >>> (at least more than you give them credit for). And since many of >>> those people (including myself) saw more compelling reasons for taking >>> out Saddam (continued violation of 1991 cease-fire agreement, >>> non-cooperation with UN inspection teams, vast history of torture, >>> abuse, killing hundreds of thousands of his own people, etc. etc. and >>> on and on) my biggest complaint is that we waited several years to >>> finally do what had to be done. >>> >>> That somehow, Bush can say one thing that turns out to be unfounded, >>> yet he's not dragged out into the streets and forced to resign because >>> many people understood that 9/11 changed everything. No, Saddam had >>> nothing to do with 9/11, but our tolerance for his continued >>> violations had dropped to the point that he had to go. Leaving him in >>> place was like putting up a billboard declaring to all enemies of the >>> US "Stop Killing Americans or We Will Say Stop Again!". After all, we >>> let a cutthroat murderer in place for 12 years and let him gain wealth >>> and more personal security, why should anyone be afraid of us? Because >>> we went into the backwater of the Middle East (Afghanistan) and beat >>> up a few thugs. All that says is that we'll only go so far, that we >>> will not get into a big fight 'cause a lot of our sons and daughters >>> might die. That shedding our own blood is too high a price to pay for >>> any reason. >>> >>> Tojo certainly saw us that way and I have no doubt Osama did as well. >>> Had Tojo known that we would respond the way we did, I doubt seriously >>> that he would've ordered the attack on Pearl Harbor. >> >> The Japanese did know that the Americans would respond in that way. >>Yamamoto told them that. They only attacked Pearl Harbour because they >>believed that if there wasn't a crushing blow which would sap the >>American will to fight that they would be wiped out. >> And for a bonus point, the Japanese were making surrender noises to the >>Russians before the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. >> Ted > > Horishi and Nagasaki - weapon testing with extreme prejudice ! > It's only now that the survivors are starting to tell their stories, I read a heartbreaking case about the only child to survive in his class. he was ostracised by the parents and children and like many of the survivors tried to commit suicide on more than one occasion. Ted -- Stare too long into the abyss and the abyss looks like a nifty place to hide the bodies .