Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : Mark Morrison Date : Wed Sep 28 2005 00:12:56 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:00:32 GMT, weirdwolf wrote: >"Ken McElhaney" wrote in >news:1127850957.250010.22460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > >> >> John I wrote: >>> Jim Larson wrote: >>> >>> > Nick wrote: >>> > >>> >> Jim Larson wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Nick wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> Nick wrote: >>> >>>>>> John I wrote: >>> >>>>>>> Nick wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Be sure to read the URL John posted. >>> >>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r. It is now obvious that this goes >>> >>>>>>>>> way beyond Abu Graib - that it was widespread and that the >>> >>>>>>>>> military is still trying to cover it up. >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> A lot of that is really bad but some of these things I look >>> >>>>>>>> at and think, so what? For example: "Detainees were also >>> >>>>>>>> stacked, fully clothed, in human pyramids and forced to hold >>> >>>>>>>> five-gallon water jugs with arms outstretched or do jumping >>> >>>>>>>> jacks until they passed out, the report says." >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> This stuff looks like really mild fraternity initiation >>> >>>>>>>> rituals or even high-school football practice. >>> >>>>>>>> Breaking bones and beatings are one thing, but this other >>> >>>>>>>> stuff is laughable. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Trun off Rush radio. It is a proven fact that it will >>> >>>>>>> actually make you dumber. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> So you have been listening to it, eh? >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Actually, I don't listen to political radio. >>> >>>>>> But I did go to catholic school and military basic training >>> >>>>>> and have had to do similar things to these. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I'm pretty sure this wasn't training or trust exercises. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Neither was mine. Holding items with your arms out was standard >>> >>>> school punishment. >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a highly controlled situation, where you knew on some >>> >>> instinctual level that there was oversight and that it would >>> >>> never go too far. I strongly doubt that you ever feared Sr. Mary >>> >>> Frances would break your wrists if you dropped the books you were >>> >>> holding. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> True, but we are comparing elementary school kids to terrorists >>> >> and insurgents. I would expect the treatment to be a little >>> >> tougher than it is on the kids. >>> > >>> > Only if those being treated tougher are actual terrorists and >>> > insurgents rather than just random brown-skinned people. Guantanamo >>> > may be a different situation. In Iraq, however, I would bet that a >>> > sizeable percentage of those arrested just had the misfortune of >>> > being picked up for some reason. >>> > >>> > But this is beside the point. What are we doing there? Are we >>> > trying to foster democracy, or are we an occupying army free to >>> > ignore our own laws and sense of decency when it's convenient? If >>> > you were a random Iraqi whose relative, terrorist or not, had just >>> > had his legs broken by the nice Marine Sergeant over there, what >>> > would your gut reaction to this question be? >>> > >>> >>> I thought we were there because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction >>> and they were getting ready to attack the US. >> >> That's what Bush emphisized and you've taken to heart as the ONLY >> reason. Problem is, people in this country have the capacity to think >> (at least more than you give them credit for). And since many of >> those people (including myself) saw more compelling reasons for taking >> out Saddam (continued violation of 1991 cease-fire agreement, >> non-cooperation with UN inspection teams, vast history of torture, >> abuse, killing hundreds of thousands of his own people, etc. etc. and >> on and on) my biggest complaint is that we waited several years to >> finally do what had to be done. >> >> That somehow, Bush can say one thing that turns out to be unfounded, >> yet he's not dragged out into the streets and forced to resign because >> many people understood that 9/11 changed everything. No, Saddam had >> nothing to do with 9/11, but our tolerance for his continued >> violations had dropped to the point that he had to go. Leaving him in >> place was like putting up a billboard declaring to all enemies of the >> US "Stop Killing Americans or We Will Say Stop Again!". After all, we >> let a cutthroat murderer in place for 12 years and let him gain wealth >> and more personal security, why should anyone be afraid of us? Because >> we went into the backwater of the Middle East (Afghanistan) and beat >> up a few thugs. All that says is that we'll only go so far, that we >> will not get into a big fight 'cause a lot of our sons and daughters >> might die. That shedding our own blood is too high a price to pay for >> any reason. >> >> Tojo certainly saw us that way and I have no doubt Osama did as well. >> Had Tojo known that we would respond the way we did, I doubt seriously >> that he would've ordered the attack on Pearl Harbor. > > The Japanese did know that the Americans would respond in that way. >Yamamoto told them that. They only attacked Pearl Harbour because they >believed that if there wasn't a crushing blow which would sap the >American will to fight that they would be wiped out. > And for a bonus point, the Japanese were making surrender noises to the >Russians before the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > Ted Horishi and Nagasaki - weapon testing with extreme prejudice ! -- Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes ! They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses ! And what's with all the carrots ? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ? Bunnies ! Bunnies ! It must be BUNNIES ! .