Subj : Re: BSG
To   : alt.tv.farscape
From : Ken McElhaney
Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 13:55:57

From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape


John I wrote:
> Jim Larson wrote:
>
> > Nick wrote:
> >
> >> Jim Larson wrote:
> >>
> >>> Nick wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Tyler Trafford wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Nick wrote:
> >>>>>> John I wrote:
> >>>>>>> Nick wrote:
> >>>>>>>> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Be sure to read the URL John posted.  http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r.
> >>>>>>>>> It is now obvious that this goes way beyond Abu Graib - that it
> >>>>>>>>> was widespread and that the military is still trying to cover
> >>>>>>>>> it up.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A lot of that is really bad but some of these things I look at
> >>>>>>>> and think, so what? For example: "Detainees were also stacked,
> >>>>>>>> fully clothed, in human pyramids and forced to hold five-gallon
> >>>>>>>> water jugs with arms outstretched or do jumping jacks until they
> >>>>>>>> passed out, the report says."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This stuff looks like really mild fraternity initiation rituals
> >>>>>>>> or even high-school football practice.
> >>>>>>>> Breaking bones and beatings are one thing, but this other stuff
> >>>>>>>> is laughable.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Trun off Rush radio.  It is a proven fact that it will actually
> >>>>>>> make you dumber.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So you have been listening to it, eh?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Actually, I don't listen to political radio.
> >>>>>> But I did go to catholic school and military basic training and
> >>>>>> have had to do similar things to these.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm pretty sure this wasn't training or trust exercises.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Neither was mine.  Holding items with your arms out was standard
> >>>> school punishment.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> In a highly controlled situation, where you knew on some instinctual
> >>> level that there was oversight and that it would never go too far. I
> >>> strongly doubt that you ever feared Sr. Mary Frances would break your
> >>> wrists if you dropped the books you were holding.
> >>
> >>
> >> True, but we are comparing elementary school kids to terrorists and
> >> insurgents.  I would expect the treatment to be a little tougher than
> >> it is on the kids.
> >
> > Only if those being treated tougher are actual terrorists and insurgents
> > rather than just random brown-skinned people. Guantanamo may be a
> > different situation. In Iraq, however, I would bet that a sizeable
> > percentage of those arrested just had the misfortune of being picked up
> > for some reason.
> >
> > But this is beside the point. What are we doing there? Are we trying to
> > foster democracy, or are we an occupying army free to ignore our own
> > laws and sense of decency when it's convenient? If you were a random
> > Iraqi whose relative, terrorist or not, had just had his legs broken by
> > the nice Marine Sergeant over there, what would your gut reaction to
> > this question be?
> >
>
> I thought we were there because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and they
> were getting ready to attack the US.

That's what Bush emphisized and you've taken to heart as the ONLY
reason.  Problem is, people in this country have the capacity to think
(at least more than you give them credit for).  And since many of those
people (including myself) saw more compelling reasons for taking out
Saddam (continued violation of 1991 cease-fire agreement,
non-cooperation with UN inspection teams, vast history of torture,
abuse, killing hundreds of thousands of his own people, etc. etc. and
on and on) my biggest complaint is that we waited several years to
finally do what had to be done.

That somehow, Bush can say one thing that turns out to be unfounded,
yet he's not dragged out into the streets and forced to resign because
many people understood that 9/11 changed everything.  No, Saddam had
nothing to do with 9/11, but our tolerance for his continued violations
had dropped to the point that he had to go.  Leaving him in place was
like putting up a billboard declaring to all enemies of the US "Stop
Killing Americans or We Will Say Stop Again!".  After all, we let a
cutthroat murderer in place for 12 years and let him gain wealth and
more personal security, why should anyone be afraid of us? Because we
went into the backwater of the Middle East (Afghanistan) and beat up a
few thugs.  All that says is that we'll only go so far, that we will
not get into a big fight 'cause a lot of our sons and daughters might
die. That shedding our own blood is too high a price to pay for any
reason.

Tojo certainly saw us that way and I have no doubt Osama did as well.
Had Tojo known that we would respond the way we did, I doubt seriously
that he would've ordered the attack on Pearl Harbor.  Had Osama seen us
seriously go after him, his organization, and Saddam for his continued
violations of the cease fire agreement after the first attack on the
WTC in '93, I seriously doubt he would've had the means, much less the
will, to attack again in 2001.

Ken

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