Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : John I Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 18:43:20 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: > Ken McElhaney wrote: >> >> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote: >> > Ken McElhaney wrote: >> > > John I wrote: >> > >> > > > In other news, when I was watching 210, I was struck by the >> > > > subtext surrounding the different ways the Fascist side treated >> > > > their prisoner, versus the way that Galactica treated hers. It >> > > > seemed remarkably coincidental with the new revalations about the >> > > > Abu Ghraib atrocities: http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > From the HRW report (http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/): >> > > > >> > > > "....Detainees at FOB Mercury were held in so-called "PUC >> > > > tents"....The torture of detainees reportedly was so widespread >> > > > and accepted that it became a means of stress relief for >> > > > soldiers. Soldiers said they felt welcome to come to the PUC tent >> > > > on their off-hours to "Fuck a PUC" or "Smoke a PUC." "Fucking a >> > > > PUC" referred to beating a detainee, while "Smoking a PUC" >> > > > referred to forced physical exertion sometimes to the point of >> > > > unconsciousness." >> > > >> > > Indeed, the crimes committed by the guards at Abu Graib are serious >> > > and should be delt with severely. As for the total scope of what >> > > they did compared to what Saddam did to his people; >> > > http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm >> > > >> > > ..is like comparing a drop of water to the Atlantic Ocean. >> > > Ken >> > >> > >> > It's one thing to stack up Saddam's crimes against the war's civilian >> > casualties. [Although time will tell how the Iraqis ultimately >> > perceive the cost-benefit ratio, given how incompetently we've >> > handled things.] >> >> Considering that 80% of Iraqis are either Kurdish or Shia, I think >> they'll look at the cost-benefit ratio a lot better than you believe. >> Was the US "incompetent"? Maybe. Would the Kurds 'n Shia like to go >> back to the good ol' days of Saddam? I highly doubt it. Why not ask a >> relative of someone killed by Saddam's troops if the totality of our >> "incompetence" is on the same scale. > > > Too early to tell. We don't yet know the results of our incompetence - > whether things will turn out OK or Iraq will end up mired in a bloody > civil war, under Taliban-type rule, etc. > > >> > But whatever Saddam did has no relation whatsoever to our treatment >> > of prisoners of war. >> >> I point it out because it keeps getting lost in the arguement. That >> somehow everything in Iraq was peachy-keen (like Moore's depiction of >> Iraqis flying kites in his film "Farenheit 911") until we showed up. >> Again, ask the Kurds 'n Shia (who rarely appear on tv since almost all >> the violence is happening in Sunni territory) if the United States is >> just as bad or even in the same ballpark as Saddam. >> >> > All we've done with regard to POWs is severely damaged ourselves -- >> > our ability to sanction other countries for mistreating prisoners and >> > our ability to object if any of our own soldiers are taken prisoner >> > in some future war. >> >> Since we are fighting terrorists, do you think they'll negotiate over >> treatment of prisoners? Do you think that those who only seek our >> destruction will somehow be nice to captured soldiers? > > > I don't mean the "War on Terror" or simply the Iraqis' opinion of us. > Who knows what future situations we will find ourselves in. The bottom > line is that, worldwide, we no longer have the moral authority to > complain about any country's treatment of prisoners, and that includes > the treatment of our own soldiers if taken prisoner. That's why McCain > and others are so upset over this. > > >> > Be sure to read the URL John posted. http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r. It is >> > now obvious that this goes way beyond Abu Graib - that it was >> > widespread and that the military is still trying to cover it up. >> >> At least its a mainstream paper this time. And while the military may >> be trying to cover it up, there appears to be NO evidence from the >> article that this was standard policy or that anyone high up ordered >> the mistreatment of prisoners. >> >> "Some soldiers beat prisoners to vent their frustrations, one sergeant >> said," >> >> That many of these incidents happened while soldiers were in an >> unsupervised situation and most of them happened before Abu Graib >> became public knowledge. >> But again, in this country we have the press who digs deep, reveals >> these mistreatments and brings them to light. Did the same thing happen >> in Iraq under Saddam? >> Ken > > > I am in no way equating our country or our behavior with Saddam's. > > I know from long experience working for the state and for large > organizations that when higher ups tacitly condone certain behavior, it > becomes widespread. When higher ups condemn such behavior, monitor > their staff, and do whatever they can to stop it, bad behavior is rare, > reported by others, and can be curbed. > > The only way to regain credibility and moral authority in the eyes of > the world is to go after the superiors who allowed this to happen. And > that is not happening. > > > - TNW > When and if Gonzo gets the nod for O'Connor's chair, we will have lost that opportunity. .