Subj : Re: BSG
To   : alt.tv.farscape
From : TNW7Z7Z7Z12345
Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 14:39:32

From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape

Ken McElhaney wrote:
> 
> TNW7Z7Z7Z12345 wrote:
> > Ken McElhaney wrote:
> > > John I wrote:
> >
> > > > In other news, when I was watching 210, I was struck by the subtext
> > > > surrounding the different ways the Fascist side treated their prisoner,
> > > > versus the way that Galactica treated hers.  It seemed remarkably
> > > > coincidental with the new revalations about the Abu Ghraib atrocities:
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From the HRW report (http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/):
> > > >
> > > > "....Detainees at FOB Mercury were held in so-called "PUC tents"....The
> > > > torture of detainees reportedly was so widespread and accepted that it became
> > > > a means of stress relief for soldiers. Soldiers said they felt welcome to
> > > > come to the PUC tent on their off-hours to "Fuck a PUC" or "Smoke a PUC."
> > > > "Fucking a PUC" referred to beating a detainee, while "Smoking a PUC"
> > > > referred to forced physical exertion sometimes to the point of
> > > > unconsciousness."
> > >
> > > Indeed, the crimes committed by the guards at Abu Graib are serious and
> > > should be delt with severely.  As for the total scope of what they did
> > > compared to what Saddam did to his people;
> > > http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm
> > >
> > > ..is like comparing a drop of water to the Atlantic Ocean.
> > > Ken
> >
> >
> > It's one thing to stack up Saddam's crimes against the war's civilian
> > casualties.  [Although time will tell how the Iraqis ultimately perceive
> > the cost-benefit ratio, given how incompetently we've handled things.]
> 
> Considering that 80% of Iraqis are either Kurdish or Shia, I think
> they'll look at the cost-benefit ratio a lot better than you believe.
> Was the US "incompetent"? Maybe.  Would the Kurds 'n Shia like to go
> back to the good ol' days of Saddam? I highly doubt it.  Why not ask a
> relative of someone killed by Saddam's troops if the totality of our
> "incompetence" is on the same scale.


Too early to tell.  We don't yet know the results of our incompetence -
whether things will turn out OK or Iraq will end up mired in a bloody
civil war, under Taliban-type rule, etc. 

 
> > But whatever Saddam did has no relation whatsoever to our treatment of
> > prisoners of war.
> 
> I point it out because it keeps getting lost in the arguement. That
> somehow everything in Iraq was peachy-keen (like Moore's depiction of
> Iraqis flying kites in his film "Farenheit 911") until we showed up.
> Again, ask the Kurds 'n Shia (who rarely appear on tv since almost all
> the violence is happening in Sunni territory) if the United States is
> just as bad or even in the same ballpark as Saddam.
> 
> > All we've done with regard to POWs is severely damaged ourselves -- our
> > ability to sanction other countries for mistreating prisoners and our
> > ability to object if any of our own soldiers are taken prisoner in some
> > future war.
> 
> Since we are fighting terrorists, do you think they'll negotiate over
> treatment of prisoners? Do you think that those who only seek our
> destruction will somehow be nice to captured soldiers?


I don't mean the "War on Terror" or simply the Iraqis' opinion of us. 
Who knows what future situations we will find ourselves in.  The bottom
line is that, worldwide, we no longer have the moral authority to
complain about any country's treatment of prisoners, and that includes
the treatment of our own soldiers if taken prisoner.  That's why McCain
and others are so upset over this.


> > Be sure to read the URL John posted.  http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r. It is
> > now obvious that this goes way beyond Abu Graib - that it was widespread
> > and that the military is still trying to cover it up.
> 
> At least its a mainstream paper this time.  And while the military may
> be trying to cover it up, there appears to be NO evidence from the
> article that this was standard policy or that anyone high up ordered
> the mistreatment of prisoners.
> 
> "Some soldiers beat prisoners to vent their frustrations, one sergeant
> said,"
> 
> That many of these incidents happened while soldiers were in an
> unsupervised situation and most of them happened before Abu Graib
> became public knowledge.
> But again, in this country we have the press who digs deep, reveals
> these mistreatments and brings them to light. Did the same thing happen
> in Iraq under Saddam?
> Ken


I am in no way equating our country or our behavior with Saddam's.  

I know from long experience working for the state and for large
organizations that when higher ups tacitly condone certain behavior, it
becomes widespread.  When higher ups condemn such behavior, monitor
their staff, and do whatever they can to stop it, bad behavior is rare,
reported by others, and can be curbed.

The only way to regain credibility and moral authority in the eyes of
the world is to go after the superiors who allowed this to happen.  And
that is not happening.


- TNW

[To e-mail me, remove 12345 from my address.]

.