Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : weirdwolf Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 15:17:40 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape John Iwaniszek wrote in news:Xns96DDEEB1DE2C2joiwhnanri@66.26.32.7: > weirdwolf wrote: > >> John Iwaniszek wrote in >> news:Xns96DDD378A82B2joiwhnanri@66.26.32.7: >> >>> weirdwolf wrote: >>> >>>> John Iwaniszek wrote in >>>> news:Xns96DDCDF688FC8joiwhnanri@66.26.32.9: >>>> >>>>> weirdwolf wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> John I wrote in >>>>>> news:Xns96DD8EA89F253oiwhnanri@66.26.32.8: >>>>>> >>>>>>> weirdwolf wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John I wrote in >>>>>>>> news:Xns96DD8CC658C5Boiwhnanri@66.26.32.8: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> John I wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Larson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Iwaniszek wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaya wrote in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:Xns96DBD5A927011chayaruth@204.153.244.170: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RR wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Larson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's some televisin' right there, that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep....That's how it's done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That episode rocked. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caine was hard not to dislike. I'm trying to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place the actress. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What else has she been in? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (STTNG. She played ensign Ro.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michelle Forbes is on BSG? Neato. I've always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought she was ~smokin'~. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She is, shall we say, less than likeable in BSG. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Although she does a very good less than likeable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my opinion.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, since you were considering watching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the show, I would suggest not starting with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current episode featuring Michelle Forbes. It's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very good, but probably loses impact if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't been along for the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've decided to begin at the beginning with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mini/S1 box - and probably won't see the current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eps 'til they hit DVD. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, it's usually a bad idea to begin watching a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> series with the season finale. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I think you'll like it) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a cheap, cut-rate season finale. You one need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ten episodes before it's shown. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (By the way, I like science fiction that gets all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegorical and shit. BSG seems to do the job very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nicely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Pegasus and Galactica diverged politically after >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Cylon attack. Pegasus became a military >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictatorship with fascist underpinnings while the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is no civilian component to the Pegusus, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's hard to describe it as a "military dictatorship" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since only military personel are involved. Better to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say standard military with a nutjob in command. As for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "fascist" comment, yea, that's kinda accurate. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, there *was* a civilian component- Cain just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drafted everyone she came across. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aerospace Engineer Guy turned Deck Chief for instance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, ONE guy gets drafted (how exactly was he drafted if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Pegusus left immediately?). Was he already on board >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if so, wasn't he working FOR Cain anyway? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> He said he was on a civilian ship before the Pegasus found >>>>>>>>>>>>> them. The implication was rather strong that the Admiral >>>>>>>>>>>>> had been forcing everyone they came across into service. >>>>>>>>>>>>> That was the point of that scene. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The contrast between the two colonial groups was quite >>>>>>>>>>>> clear: The Pegasus group became an austere military society >>>>>>>>>>>> ruled by an autocrat with a singleminded purpose, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What group? The Pegusus seems to be the only ship in it's >>>>>>>>>>> group, unless I missed something during the shaky CGI scenes >>>>>>>>>>> showing the Pegusus surrounded by civilan ships. But even >>>>>>>>>>> so, there would be no civilian command structure in the >>>>>>>>>>> Pegusus's group since there were no surviving members of the >>>>>>>>>>> Colonial governing body...at least none that has been >>>>>>>>>>> established. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> while the Galactica group clearly is trying to preserve >>>>>>>>>>>> the civilian leadership and the civil society that should >>>>>>>>>>>> be the point of most Liberal democracies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well, "Liberal" democracies would put the civilian President >>>>>>>>>>> in charge of the military. That does not appear to be the >>>>>>>>>>> case here as Adama could simply inform the President of >>>>>>>>>>> Cain's actions and she could fire her as Admiral. And there >>>>>>>>>>> are plenty of precidents in US history to back that up. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It doesn't matter who says they are President if the military >>>>>>>>>> follows someone else and doesn't recognize her/his authority. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also, someone wasn't paying attention when I described the >>>>>>>>> Galactica group as a form of liberal democracy where the >>>>>>>>> military and the civilian government are in partnership, not >>>>>>>>> one under the other in a strict chain of command. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Their model is more like Turkey and less like Pakistan. A >>>>>>>>> benign Military that doesn't govern but is willing to >>>>>>>>> intervene if the greater good is threatened. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John you might want to read more about Turkey before you make >>>>>>>> comments like that. >>>>>>>> Ted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There's no doubt that the military in Turkey is keeping a very >>>>>>> close watch on the civilian government and will exert force if >>>>>>> the civilians try anything, like adopt a theocracy, for example. >>>>>>> So I don't understand your comment. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The military has got a long history of murder, torture and rape >>>>>> of civilians who have the unfortunate habit of either speaking up >>>>>> for a truly democratic state, are a member of the minority >>>>>> Kurdish ethnic group or just piss them off by there very >>>>>> existence. http://www.khrp.org/ >>>>>> http://www.mtcp.co.uk/campaigns.php?id=7 You'll like the Mark >>>>>> Thomas guy, think Moore but funnier and more politically astute. >>>>>> Of course the civilian goverment is also culpable but you have to >>>>>> remember that there were military coups in 60,71,80 and heavy >>>>>> military involvement in the 97 coup, but that one was ok because >>>>>> it got rid of the Islamic government. Of course this doesn't even >>>>>> begin to touch on Cyprus and the invasion by Turkish forces in >>>>>> 74. Hardly the secular liberal government model that you want to >>>>>> follow now is it? >>>>>> Ted >>>>> >>>>> Nope. I was aware of the issues surrounding the military gov (and >>>>> I was thinking more about the recent coup than the later ones). >>>>> >>>>> I wasn't endorsing the set-up, just using it as an analogy for the >>>>> Galactica group. >>>> >>>> But your analogy was false, the galactica group was under the >>>> control of a civilian government where there is free speech and the >>>> right for every citizen, even those from the 13th colony on the >>>> prison ship to have a democratic say in how the civilian side is >>>> run. The same cannot be said for Turkey. >>>> The galactica group has not tortured and used rape to break an >>>> enemy nd for "fun". Again the same cannot be said for Turkey. >>> >>> >>> It's a tortured analog, but on its surface I think that it's apt. >>> Don't forget Adama locked up the president (I wasn't watching at >>> that time so I don't know what the circumstances were.) And there >>> were the incidents with the massacre of civilians and the vetoed >>> tribunal. >>> GG is a microcosm. It's more of a smallish city state with a >>> monolithic culture than it is a post imperial multicultural entity >>> of millions like Turkey is. Yes there are vast gulfs of >>> differences, but the surface similarities are there and that is all >>> I was getting at. >>> >> >> The problem is that the surface similarities have more in common >> with >> the pegasus than the galactica. Isreal would have been a better >> choice to a certain extent. >> >>>>> My point in apologizing for the Galactica group by say "we like >>>>> them and identify with them" was meant somewhat fatalistically >>>>> because the set-up the Galactica group has is by no means ideal >>>>> (yet it is preferable to the military autocracy Cain slipped so >>>>> easily into). They have been guilty of their share of >>>>> totalitarianism and civilian-directed mayhem and oppression as >>>>> well. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You may have been better served by citing the U.S. government than >>>> the >>>> Turkish one as your comparison. >>>> Ted >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> The military in the US is under civilian control. The best the >>> Galactica group can do is claim an uneasy partnership with the >>> Military. >>> >> >> Hmm, you do have a huge civilian spending on the military, its bases >> and contracts keep many communities and businesses active, both out >> in the open and backdoor military sources have a huge influence in >> some areas of civilian policy making. I'm not saying that there is no >> civilian control over the military but for example in BSG/Iraq the >> shooting of protestors had little to do with civilian control and >> more with the fact that a purely military aim on a small scale such >> as this is usually left to the military themselves. Just out of >> interest, how many of the last few presidents have had some service >> in any of the branches of the military? >> Ted > > Eisenhower = General > Kennedy = Navy > Johnson = Navy > Nixon = Navy > Carter = Navy > Ford = Navy > Reagan = Imagined that he saw action, was corrected by "Mommy". > Devotees claim this counts as military service and seek to emulate his > saintly example. > Bush = Navy > Clinton = civilian > Bush = wartime deserter A completely different story to the British prime ministers of the last few years. > The bulk of the military experience above was during WWII. There are > no more of that generation left. Baby boomers have taken the past > four terms. And as you saw in the last election, none of the > traditional elements of military service were honored. In fact, both > primary symbols of military sacrifice and heroism were mocked in the > run-up to and during the Republican National Convention. Hmm how many gulf war vets are serving now as politicians at lower levels I'ld guess that there hasn't been enough time yet for them to come through the ranks? I mean unlike Vietnaam or Korea these people were involved in a military victory and we all know America likes a winner over everything else. > There is absolute civilian control over the US military. The > President, a civilian, whose authority is conferred by the people, is > Commander and Chief and the Constitution confers the powers to > authorize war on Congress. Congress has shirked this duty in recent > years and this President has enjoyed near-dictatorial powers in waging > war. These terms saw more erosion of the seperation of powers than > ever before, but among the worst of thes has been the abdication of > the role of Congress in declaring war. > > > What you may be confusing with military control over the government is > actually industrial, or more precisely, corporate control of the > civilian government by the arms manufacturing, oil, and media. This > is the old Military/Industrial Complext that Eisenhower warned us > about. > > No John, no John, no! I will not get them mixed up,(sorry listening to a Paul Robeson cd. just be glad you didn't get Chi Lai.) What I am trying to point out is that the military in the U.S. has more influence either through the economic means of contracts for arms manafacturing and bases and the more military means of briefings/support than any other nation at this moment in time. Ted -- Stare too long into the abyss and the abyss looks like a nifty place to hide the bodies .