Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : weirdwolf Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 04:15:13 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape "Ken McElhaney" wrote in news:1127788907.491116.135130@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: > > weirdwolf wrote: >> John Iwaniszek wrote in >> news:Xns96DDD378A82B2joiwhnanri@66.26.32.7: >> >> > weirdwolf wrote: >> > >> >> John Iwaniszek wrote in >> >> news:Xns96DDCDF688FC8joiwhnanri@66.26.32.9: >> >> >> >>> weirdwolf wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> John I wrote in >> >>>> news:Xns96DD8EA89F253oiwhnanri@66.26.32.8: >> >>>> >> >>>>> weirdwolf wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> John I wrote in >> >>>>>> news:Xns96DD8CC658C5Boiwhnanri@66.26.32.8: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> John I wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Larson wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Iwaniszek wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaya wrote in >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:Xns96DBD5A927011chayaruth@204.153.244.170: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RR wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Larson wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's some televisin' right there, that >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is.... >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep....That's how it's done. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That episode rocked. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caine was hard not to dislike. I'm trying to >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place the actress. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What else has she been in? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (STTNG. She played ensign Ro.) >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michelle Forbes is on BSG? Neato. I've always >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought she was ~smokin'~. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She is, shall we say, less than likeable in BSG. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Although she does a very good less than >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likeable, in my opinion.) >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, since you were considering watching >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the show, I would suggest not starting with the >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current episode featuring Michelle Forbes. It's >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very good, but probably loses impact if you >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't been along for the ride. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've decided to begin at the beginning with the >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mini/S1 box - and probably won't see the current >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eps 'til they hit DVD. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, it's usually a bad idea to begin watching a >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> series with the season finale. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;) >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I think you'll like it) >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a cheap, cut-rate season finale. You one need >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ten episodes before it's shown. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (By the way, I like science fiction that gets all >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegorical and shit. BSG seems to do the job very >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nicely. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Pegasus and Galactica diverged politically after >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Cylon attack. Pegasus became a military >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictatorship with fascist underpinnings while the >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is no civilian component to the Pegusus, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's hard to describe it as a "military dictatorship" >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since only military personel are involved. Better to >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say standard military with a nutjob in command. As >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the "fascist" comment, yea, that's kinda >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurate. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, there *was* a civilian component- Cain just >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> drafted everyone she came across. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Aerospace Engineer Guy turned Deck Chief for instance. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, ONE guy gets drafted (how exactly was he drafted if >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the Pegusus left immediately?). Was he already on board >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and if so, wasn't he working FOR Cain anyway? >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> He said he was on a civilian ship before the Pegasus >> >>>>>>>>>>> found them. The implication was rather strong that the >> >>>>>>>>>>> Admiral had been forcing everyone they came across into >> >>>>>>>>>>> service. That was the point of that scene. >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> The contrast between the two colonial groups was quite >> >>>>>>>>>> clear: The Pegasus group became an austere military >> >>>>>>>>>> society ruled by an autocrat with a singleminded purpose, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> What group? The Pegusus seems to be the only ship in it's >> >>>>>>>>> group, unless I missed something during the shaky CGI >> >>>>>>>>> scenes showing the Pegusus surrounded by civilan ships. >> >>>>>>>>> But even so, there would be no civilian command structure >> >>>>>>>>> in the Pegusus's group since there were no surviving >> >>>>>>>>> members of the Colonial governing body...at least none that >> >>>>>>>>> has been established. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> while the Galactica group clearly is trying to preserve >> >>>>>>>>>> the civilian leadership and the civil society that should >> >>>>>>>>>> be the point of most Liberal democracies. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Well, "Liberal" democracies would put the civilian >> >>>>>>>>> President in charge of the military. That does not appear >> >>>>>>>>> to be the case here as Adama could simply inform the >> >>>>>>>>> President of Cain's actions and she could fire her as >> >>>>>>>>> Admiral. And there are plenty of precidents in US history >> >>>>>>>>> to back that up. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> It doesn't matter who says they are President if the >> >>>>>>>> military follows someone else and doesn't recognize her/his >> >>>>>>>> authority. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Also, someone wasn't paying attention when I described the >> >>>>>>> Galactica group as a form of liberal democracy where the >> >>>>>>> military and the civilian government are in partnership, not >> >>>>>>> one under the other in a strict chain of command. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Their model is more like Turkey and less like Pakistan. A >> >>>>>>> benign Military that doesn't govern but is willing to >> >>>>>>> intervene if the greater good is threatened. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> John you might want to read more about Turkey before you make >> >>>>>> comments like that. >> >>>>>> Ted >> >>>>> >> >>>>> There's no doubt that the military in Turkey is keeping a very >> >>>>> close watch on the civilian government and will exert force if >> >>>>> the civilians try anything, like adopt a theocracy, for >> >>>>> example. So I don't understand your comment. >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> The military has got a long history of murder, torture and rape >> >>>> of civilians who have the unfortunate habit of either speaking >> >>>> up for a truly democratic state, are a member of the minority >> >>>> Kurdish ethnic group or just piss them off by there very >> >>>> existence. http://www.khrp.org/ >> >>>> http://www.mtcp.co.uk/campaigns.php?id=7 You'll like the Mark >> >>>> Thomas guy, think Moore but funnier and more politically astute. >> >>>> Of course the civilian goverment is also culpable but you have >> >>>> to remember that there were military coups in 60,71,80 and heavy >> >>>> military involvement in the 97 coup, but that one was ok because >> >>>> it got rid of the Islamic government. Of course this doesn't >> >>>> even begin to touch on Cyprus and the invasion by Turkish forces >> >>>> in 74. Hardly the secular liberal government model that you want >> >>>> to follow now >> >>>> is it? >> >>>> Ted >> >>> >> >>> Nope. I was aware of the issues surrounding the military gov >> >>> (and I was thinking more about the recent coup than the later >> >>> ones). >> >>> >> >>> I wasn't endorsing the set-up, just using it as an analogy for >> >>> the Galactica group. >> >> >> >> But your analogy was false, the galactica group was under the >> >> control of a civilian government where there is free speech and >> >> the right for every citizen, even those from the 13th colony on >> >> the prison ship to have a democratic say in how the civilian side >> >> is run. The same cannot be said for Turkey. >> >> The galactica group has not tortured and used rape to break an >> >> enemy nd >> >> for "fun". Again the same cannot be said for Turkey. >> > >> > >> > It's a tortured analog, but on its surface I think that it's apt. >> > Don't forget Adama locked up the president (I wasn't watching at >> > that time so I don't know what the circumstances were.) And there >> > were the incidents with the massacre of civilians and the vetoed >> > tribunal. GG is a microcosm. It's more of a smallish city state >> > with a monolithic culture than it is a post imperial multicultural >> > entity of millions like Turkey is. Yes there are vast gulfs of >> > differences, but the surface similarities are there and that is all >> > I was getting at. >> > >> >> The problem is that the surface similarities have more in common >> with >> the pegasus than the galactica. Isreal would have been a better >> choice to a certain extent. >> >> >>> My point in apologizing for the Galactica group by say "we like >> >>> them and identify with them" was meant somewhat fatalistically >> >>> because the set-up the Galactica group has is by no means ideal >> >>> (yet it is preferable to the military autocracy Cain slipped so >> >>> easily into). They have been guilty of their share of >> >>> totalitarianism and civilian-directed mayhem and oppression as >> >>> well. >> >>> >> >> >> >> You may have been better served by citing the U.S. government >> >> than the >> >> Turkish one as your comparison. >> >> Ted >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > The military in the US is under civilian control. The best the >> > Galactica group can do is claim an uneasy partnership with the >> > Military. >> > >> >> Hmm, you do have a huge civilian spending on the military, its bases >> and contracts keep many communities and businesses active, both out >> in the open and backdoor military sources have a huge influence in >> some areas of civilian policy making. I'm not saying that there is no >> civilian control over the military but for example in BSG/Iraq the >> shooting of protestors had little to do with civilian control and >> more with the fact that a purely military aim on a small scale such >> as this is usually left to the military themselves. Just out of >> interest, how many of the last few presidents have had some service >> in any of the branches of the military? > > I think you guys are reading far more into this than what the writers > of BSG intended. Er not me, I was more interested in the Turkey comment MMMMMTURKEYMMMMmm >Basically, you have a Admiral in a bad wig running > her ship hardcore going up against a somewhat nicer (depending on the > script) Commander who's authority is either unquestioned by the > civilian authorities (in which case, Adama is a military dictator) or > is subject to their command (in which case, Adama is the leader of the > fleet and the Admiral has no authority over him). This "partnership" > idea is too funny for words. > > The writers have failed to establish a clear idea of the > Adama/President relationship really is so it can change from one > episode to another, depending on what kind of situation they want to > cook up. Which makes sense as this is a totally new and fluid situation which they have no experience with. > Ken - who'll take the Admiral's bad wig over Triple H in a cage match > and give 2 - 1 odds. > I know all of those words in that sentence but fail to understand it totally, whats a triple H? I'm guessing that a cage match is some kind of fight in a cage? Ted -- Stare too long into the abyss and the abyss looks like a nifty place to hide the bodies .