Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : John Iwaniszek Date : Tue Sep 27 2005 01:40:01 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape weirdwolf wrote: > John Iwaniszek wrote in > news:Xns96DDCDF688FC8joiwhnanri@66.26.32.9: > >> weirdwolf wrote: >> >>> John I wrote in >>> news:Xns96DD8EA89F253oiwhnanri@66.26.32.8: >>> >>>> weirdwolf wrote: >>>> >>>>> John I wrote in >>>>> news:Xns96DD8CC658C5Boiwhnanri@66.26.32.8: >>>>> >>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John I wrote: >>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jim Larson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Trafford wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ken McElhaney wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Iwaniszek wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaya wrote in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:Xns96DBD5A927011chayaruth@204.153.244.170: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RR wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jim Larson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's some televisin' right there, that is.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep....That's how it's done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That episode rocked. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caine was hard not to dislike. I'm trying to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> place the actress. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What else has she been in? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (STTNG. She played ensign Ro.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michelle Forbes is on BSG? Neato. I've always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought she was ~smokin'~. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She is, shall we say, less than likeable in BSG. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Although she does a very good less than likeable, in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my opinion.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, since you were considering watching the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show, I would suggest not starting with the current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> episode featuring Michelle Forbes. It's very good, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but probably loses impact if you haven't been along >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the ride. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've decided to begin at the beginning with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mini/S1 box - and probably won't see the current eps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'til they hit DVD. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, it's usually a bad idea to begin watching a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> series with the season finale. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I think you'll like it) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a cheap, cut-rate season finale. You one need ten >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> episodes before it's shown. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (By the way, I like science fiction that gets all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allegorical and shit. BSG seems to do the job very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nicely. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Pegasus and Galactica diverged politically after the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cylon attack. Pegasus became a military dictatorship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with fascist underpinnings while the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since there is no civilian component to the Pegusus, it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to describe it as a "military dictatorship" since >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only military personel are involved. Better to say >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard military with a nutjob in command. As for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "fascist" comment, yea, that's kinda accurate. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, there *was* a civilian component- Cain just drafted >>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone she came across. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Aerospace Engineer Guy turned Deck Chief for instance. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wow, ONE guy gets drafted (how exactly was he drafted if the >>>>>>>>>>> Pegusus left immediately?). Was he already on board and if >>>>>>>>>>> so, wasn't he working FOR Cain anyway? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> He said he was on a civilian ship before the Pegasus found >>>>>>>>>> them. The implication was rather strong that the Admiral had >>>>>>>>>> been forcing everyone they came across into service. That >>>>>>>>>> was the point of that scene. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The contrast between the two colonial groups was quite clear: >>>>>>>>> The Pegasus group became an austere military society ruled by >>>>>>>>> an autocrat with a singleminded purpose, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What group? The Pegusus seems to be the only ship in it's >>>>>>>> group, unless I missed something during the shaky CGI scenes >>>>>>>> showing the Pegusus surrounded by civilan ships. But even so, >>>>>>>> there would be no civilian command structure in the Pegusus's >>>>>>>> group since there were no surviving members of the Colonial >>>>>>>> governing body...at least none that has been established. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> while the Galactica group clearly is trying to preserve >>>>>>>>> the civilian leadership and the civil society that should be >>>>>>>>> the point of most Liberal democracies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, "Liberal" democracies would put the civilian President in >>>>>>>> charge of the military. That does not appear to be the case >>>>>>>> here as Adama could simply inform the President of Cain's >>>>>>>> actions and she could fire her as Admiral. And there are >>>>>>>> plenty of precidents in US history to back that up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It doesn't matter who says they are President if the military >>>>>>> follows someone else and doesn't recognize her/his authority. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, someone wasn't paying attention when I described the >>>>>> Galactica group as a form of liberal democracy where the military >>>>>> and the civilian government are in partnership, not one under the >>>>>> other in a strict chain of command. >>>>>> >>>>>> Their model is more like Turkey and less like Pakistan. A benign >>>>>> Military that doesn't govern but is willing to intervene if the >>>>>> greater good is threatened. >>>>> >>>>> John you might want to read more about Turkey before you make >>>>> comments like that. >>>>> Ted >>>> >>>> There's no doubt that the military in Turkey is keeping a very >>>> close watch on the civilian government and will exert force if the >>>> civilians try anything, like adopt a theocracy, for example. So I >>>> don't understand your comment. >>>> >>> >>> The military has got a long history of murder, torture and rape of >>> civilians who have the unfortunate habit of either speaking up for a >>> truly democratic state, are a member of the minority Kurdish ethnic >>> group or just piss them off by there very existence. >>> http://www.khrp.org/ http://www.mtcp.co.uk/campaigns.php?id=7 >>> You'll like the Mark Thomas guy, think Moore but funnier and more >>> politically astute. >>> Of course the civilian goverment is also culpable but you have to >>> remember that there were military coups in 60,71,80 and heavy >>> military involvement in the 97 coup, but that one was ok because it >>> got rid of the Islamic government. Of course this doesn't even begin >>> to touch on Cyprus and the invasion by Turkish forces in 74. >>> Hardly the secular liberal government model that you want to follow >>> now >>> is it? >>> Ted >> >> Nope. I was aware of the issues surrounding the military gov (and I >> was thinking more about the recent coup than the later ones). >> >> I wasn't endorsing the set-up, just using it as an analogy for the >> Galactica group. > > But your analogy was false, the galactica group was under the control > of a civilian government where there is free speech and the right for > every citizen, even those from the 13th colony on the prison ship to > have a democratic say in how the civilian side is run. The same cannot > be said for Turkey. > The galactica group has not tortured and used rape to break an enemy > nd > for "fun". Again the same cannot be said for Turkey. It's a tortured analog, but on its surface I think that it's apt. Don't forget Adama locked up the president (I wasn't watching at that time so I don't know what the circumstances were.) And there were the incidents with the massacre of civilians and the vetoed tribunal. GG is a microcosm. It's more of a smallish city state with a monolithic culture than it is a post imperial multicultural entity of millions like Turkey is. Yes there are vast gulfs of differences, but the surface similarities are there and that is all I was getting at. > >> My point in apologizing for the Galactica group by say "we like them >> and identify with them" was meant somewhat fatalistically because the >> set-up the Galactica group has is by no means ideal (yet it is >> preferable to the military autocracy Cain slipped so easily into). >> They have been guilty of their share of totalitarianism and >> civilian-directed mayhem and oppression as well. >> > > You may have been better served by citing the U.S. government than > the > Turkish one as your comparison. > Ted > > > The military in the US is under civilian control. The best the Galactica group can do is claim an uneasy partnership with the Military. .