Subj : Re: BSG To : alt.tv.farscape From : Ken McElhaney Date : Mon Sep 26 2005 12:46:33 From Newsgroup: alt.tv.farscape John I wrote: > Tyler Trafford wrote: > > > Ken McElhaney wrote: > >> > >> John I wrote: > >>> Tyler Trafford wrote: > >>> > >>> > Ken McElhaney wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Jim Larson wrote: > >>> >>> Tyler Trafford wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Ken McElhaney wrote: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> John Iwaniszek wrote: > >>> >>> >>> Chaya wrote in > >>> >>> >>> news:Xns96DBD5A927011chayaruth@204.153.244.170: > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > RR wrote: > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> >> Jim Larson wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>> That's some televisin' right there, that is.... > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> Yep....That's how it's done. > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> That episode rocked. > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> Caine was hard not to dislike. I'm trying to place the > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> actress. > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> What else has she been in? > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> (STTNG. She played ensign Ro.) > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> Michelle Forbes is on BSG? Neato. I've always thought she > >>> >>> >>> >>>> was ~smokin'~. > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> She is, shall we say, less than likeable in BSG. (Although > >>> >>> >>> >>> she does a very good less than likeable, in my opinion.) > >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, since you were considering watching the show, > >>> >>> >>> >>> I would suggest not starting with the current episode > >>> >>> >>> >>> featuring Michelle Forbes. It's very good, but probably > >>> >>> >>> >>> loses impact if you haven't been along for the ride. > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> I've decided to begin at the beginning with the mini/S1 box > >>> >>> >>> >> - and probably won't see the current eps 'til they hit DVD. > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > Yeah, it's usually a bad idea to begin watching a series > >>> >>> >>> > with the season finale. > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > ;) > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > (I think you'll like it) > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> It's a cheap, cut-rate season finale. You one need ten > >>> >>> >>> episodes before it's shown. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> (By the way, I like science fiction that gets all allegorical > >>> >>> >>> and shit. BSG seems to do the job very nicely. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> The Pegasus and Galactica diverged politically after the Cylon > >>> >>> >>> attack. Pegasus became a military dictatorship with fascist > >>> >>> >>> underpinnings while the > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> Since there is no civilian component to the Pegusus, it's hard > >>> >>> >> to describe it as a "military dictatorship" since only military > >>> >>> >> personel are involved. Better to say standard military with a > >>> >>> >> nutjob in command. As for the "fascist" comment, yea, that's > >>> >>> >> kinda accurate. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Well, there *was* a civilian component- Cain just drafted > >>> >>> > everyone she came across. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Aerospace Engineer Guy turned Deck Chief for instance. > >>> >> > >>> >> Wow, ONE guy gets drafted (how exactly was he drafted if the > >>> >> Pegusus left immediately?). Was he already on board and if so, > >>> >> wasn't he working FOR Cain anyway? > >>> > > >>> > He said he was on a civilian ship before the Pegasus found them. > >>> > The implication was rather strong that the Admiral had been forcing > >>> > everyone they came across into service. That was the point of that > >>> > scene. > >>> > >>> The contrast between the two colonial groups was quite clear: The > >>> Pegasus group became an austere military society ruled by an autocrat > >>> with a singleminded purpose, > >> > >> What group? The Pegusus seems to be the only ship in it's group, unless > >> I missed something during the shaky CGI scenes showing the Pegusus > >> surrounded by civilan ships. But even so, there would be no civilian > >> command structure in the Pegusus's group since there were no surviving > >> members of the Colonial governing body...at least none that has been > >> established. > >> > >>>while the Galactica group clearly is trying to preserve > >>> the civilian leadership and the civil society that should be the point > >>> of most Liberal democracies. > >> > >> Well, "Liberal" democracies would put the civilian President in charge > >> of the military. That does not appear to be the case here as Adama > >> could simply inform the President of Cain's actions and she could fire > >> her as Admiral. And there are plenty of precidents in US history to > >> back that up. > > > > It doesn't matter who says they are President if the military follows > > someone else and doesn't recognize her/his authority. > > Also, someone wasn't paying attention when I described the Galactica group as > a form of liberal democracy where the military and the civilian government > are in partnership, not one under the other in a strict chain of command. Then it is not a "liberal" form of democracy. The military does not work with the civilian government, they are under its authority. Otherwise, it is not a democracy if the civilian authorities cannot command them. > Their model is more like Turkey and less like Pakistan. A benign Military > that doesn't govern but is willing to intervene if the greater good is > threatened. If the military can choose on its own who to follow, deciding for its own what is the "greater good", then there is no democracy. > We like the Galactica group and identify with them. That is why we are > willing to cut them slack. Well, why the fans do, yup. > The Pegasas group is a military dictatorship bent > on conquest and control. That is why they seized on the incident where Adama > abrogated the tribunal results (in a situation I am not familiar with). Again, a "military dictatorship" implies that Cain controls a significant amount of "civilians", she apparently does not, she only controls her ship and a few rag-tag civilians incorperated into her command structure. So your term "military dictatorship" does not apply. She is, despite her wig, power mad and parts of her crew a bunch of thugs, but a "military dictator"? Puh-leese. > It is perfectly clear that the society evolving on Galactica group is aimed > towards a Liberal democracy. But if the civilians are not in control, then its "evolution" is subject to the whims of the military commander. In effect, if Adama can override the President and the ruling body, then the "military dictatorship" description is more akin to Adama than Cain, since Cain has no large amount of civilians under her direct control. And if so, then the BSG writers have stumbled into another problem. With Adama in charge of the fleet, he can legally ignore Cain and her actions upon his crew since the government ruled by him can demote, fire, or simply ignore Cain. Previous military rank does NOT mean anything if that particular government is gone. Let's put it this way, say a colonel manages to take charge of the civilian government. Is he or she then subject to a general? No. The government which recognized the general is gone and colonel is in command. > Likewise it is perfectly clear that the Pegasas > group is headed in the opposite direction. Hmmm, no. Since the Pegasus already had a command structure and no infusion of a significant amount of civilians, then a more apt description is that the Pegasus has a nutjob commander and a crew willing to follow. > In other news, when I was watching 210, I was struck by the subtext > surrounding the different ways the Fascist side treated their prisoner, > versus the way that Galactica treated hers. It seemed remarkably > coincidental with the new revalations about the Abu Ghraib atrocities: > http://tinyurl.com/8ko7r > > > From the HRW report (http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/): > > "....Detainees at FOB Mercury were held in so-called "PUC tents"....The > torture of detainees reportedly was so widespread and accepted that it became > a means of stress relief for soldiers. Soldiers said they felt welcome to > come to the PUC tent on their off-hours to "Fuck a PUC" or "Smoke a PUC." > "Fucking a PUC" referred to beating a detainee, while "Smoking a PUC" > referred to forced physical exertion sometimes to the point of > unconsciousness." Indeed, the crimes committed by the guards at Abu Graib are serious and should be delt with severely. As for the total scope of what they did compared to what Saddam did to his people; http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm ...is like comparing a drop of water to the Atlantic Ocean. Ken .