Subj : 1:10/345 To : Roy Witt From : Michael Grant Date : Fri Nov 30 2001 12:16 am Hello Roy. 29 Nov 01 17:22, you wrote to me: MG>>>> then you, ever the opportunist, have to add in your little MG>>>> punishment just because you hate the man so much. RW>>> Actually, Ross has been quite vocal in the echo when he needn't RW>>> be. Netmail would have worked just fine to quell the tirade RW>>> between he and Todd. MG>> Ross Cassell has stated publically and often that the Z1B hubs do MG>> not respond to his netmails. RW> That's no problem...it just means they don't want to reply to you. End RW> of story and it's time to move on. Then ignore the concerns of your downlinks? Make the people who just want their mail and want to communicate with someone else suffer? These things are important to a mail mover, and a hub should do everything he or she can to get an answer to their questions. MG>> It's a fact that has not been denied by the Z1B. If that mode MG>> of communication does not work, you leave Ross no choice but to MG>> use echomail. RW> BS...ever hear of email or the landline? RW>>> And don't forget, this isn't a punishment until Ross makes RW>>> another slip up and breaks the rules here again. MG>> Any "punishment" is the moderator's job. Dale was not the MG>> moderator, but choose to impose a censorship of his own design MG>> upon Ross. RW> So what? Has it come to be? Maybe it's time Ross minded his Ps and RW> Qs in someone elses echo...perpetuating the backbone wars isn't doing RW> the sysops any good. They are being "perpretrated" by both sides, and always have been. Ross is not the sole cause of the backbone wars and never was. RW>>> Hmmmm. It'd be nice to stay neutral here; I didn't see Dale RW>>> jumping on Ross' ass for his language, I saw David's message RW>>> that he should hold it down. Then, instead of holding it down, RW>>> Ross further inflamed the situation by ranting about how he was RW>>> picked out as the instigator. MG>> Look at time stamps. Ross responded /first/ to Todd, and didn't MG>> even have time to respond to David's warning before Dale jumped MG>> all over him. RW> What harm has it done? Other than yourself making all kinds of waves RW> about it, it's nice and peaceful now. Maybe the Z1B can finally get RW> some business done. RW>>> Meanwhile, David also told Todd to quit, being as how he's a Z1B RW>>> Tier something hub and should know better. But no one has threatened to cut Todd's link; and Todd did the /exact/ same thing to Ross that Ross did to him, and Todd's attack came /first/, without warning or good reason. It's a double-standard. Would you just keep your mouth shut if someone suddenly attacks you and says "fuck you"? MG>> I've commented on that. I felt David did the right thing; it MG>> was Dale's actions that were unwarranted. RW> It was also Ross's actions that were unwarranted. Ross just responded in kind to Todd; he did nothing more than was done to him, and posted no further messages here. RW>>> When Ross continued cutting Todd down and bitching about the RW>>> message that he stop his use of language not wanted here, that's RW>>> when I saw Dale jump into it with his ERN link cut - warning. MG>> That happened /immediately/ after Todd's message. Ross was not MG>> even given a chance to say one word afterwards; Dale issued his MG>> "edict" immediately afterwards. RW> Probably a good thing. RW>>> How else is the moderator or Dale supposed to deal with Ross, RW>>> the mail mover, without bothering those who link to both for RW>>> echomail? The way moderators are /supposed/ to deal with them? Dale was not the acting moderator, BTW, David was. If a feed cut has to happen, so be it; I'd accept that a lot more readily than I would a link cut; and I'd be one of the ones affected by a feed cut, but not for long... MG>> As a moderator, you know well that one must wait to see if the MG>> abuser heeds the warning. RW> But, as a moderator, I don't have to wait to act. I've had the feed RW> cut arranged before I got an idea of what the abuser would do. That RW> way, it happens right away instead of having to do the proof bit while RW> someone is carrying on in the echo. And how much did that help you wrt Barry Blackford and FLAME? You /still/ have to have a good reason, and have to have documented warnings, or mail movers will refuse the cut. MG>> David issued a warning /after/ Ross' post, and Dale didn't wait MG>> for a response from Ross. RW> But it sure curtailed what the moderator had already warned Ross about RW> in earlier posts. Only because Ross Cassell cares about the welfare of his downlinks; it's them who would suffer if Dale carried out his threat. RW>>> If he were to cut his echomail link, everyone would be cut off RW>>> from this and a few other echoes, both sides of the cut. Then we RW>>> all suffer. MG>> And cutting links is better? RW> Do you have a reading disability? MG>> Should your uplink cut your link if you say something in a public MG>> echo that he or she doesn't like? RW> It's happened. I've seen moderators cut the feed of someone who said RW> something bad about their moderating, in an echo not belonging to the RW> moderator. Jack Sargent comes to mind. We kicked his butt around the RW> MODERATOR echo for a month on that one. He finally changed his rules. Pay attention, Roy; Dale isn't talking about a feed cut; he's talking about a link cut. There's a /big/ difference there. RW>>> Cutting Ross' ERN link doesn't make anyone suffer, as the RW>>> links around Ross are still there with 1:106/1 and the other RW>>> node, I forget the number. They still have an effect; the mail is delayed and because it has to go through on extra hop, there's more chance a given system may barf on the message. It barely affects Ross at all; Ross live in the same geographic area and can CRASH a netmail to Dale at very little cost to himself at any time. It affects Ross' downlinks more than it does him. MG>> Today it's only an ERN link; who's to say that tomorrow it MG>> won't be an Echomail link? RW> Ross Cassell. MG>> We've already seen the RC12 cut an echomail link for no good MG>> reason. RW> We both know that the RC12 and his followers are all idiots. Who were incited to cut all NAB links by the lies propogated by the Z1B hubs; there you go; Ross /isn't/ responsible for everything in this backbone war. RW>>> I see Ross can't constrain himself, as he continues to answer RW>>> these posts in the NAB and FN_SYSOP echoes. When he got very RW>>> few replies and failed to bait Dale into the FN_SYSOP echo, he RW>>> carried it into the NAB echo. MG>> As I said; now they've made him into the great "boogey man", so MG>> yeah, I'd speak out as well if I was in his position. RW> ROTFL! Maybe they've got Ross's number. MG>> OTOH if they had just warned him as moderators are /supposed/ MG>> to do, he'd likely have shut up. His ravings elsewhere are the MG> Z1B's own doing. RW> David and Dale both did, many times. David was the moderator. David warned him once over this incident; and David did not nor did he even have to threaten Ross with a feed cut. Dale's actions have nothing to do with moderating; he was not the acting moderator of record at the time. RW>>> That won't be any different than what he got in FN, so he's RW>>> beating his brains out for nothing. Unless of course he gets RW>>> some sympathy from Seaborn. Not much solice in that and I know RW>>> Brenda won't get into it. Her phylosophy is 'move the mail' and RW>>> forget the politics. MG>> I very much respect Brenda Donovan; and it's in part the fact MG>> that she was the Hub victimized by the politics of the Z1B that MG>> makes me think that their practices are shameful. RW> Don't believe for a minute that she's been victimized over this... A full echomail feed was cut from her system for nothing other than the lies spread by the Z1B saying that /no/ NAB hubs can be trusted. I call that being victimized. MG>>>> Some people seem to want a perpetual state of war, and you MG>>>> fit that description to a tee. RW>>> That's odd! I don't see Dale running all over Fidonet ranting RW>>> and raving about this, nor anything else that's been said here RW>>> in the past 6 or 8 months. MG>> In the past 6 or 8 months, Ross has been trying very hard to be MG>> diplomatic to the Z1B and try and smooth over the animosities MG>> he's built up in the past. It';s not something that's easy for MG>> him to do, but he clearly /was/ making an effort. I've been MG>> watching it closely and with interest, despite the fact that I MG>> was silent on the issue until now. RW> I've been watching it as well and come away with a different point of RW> view. Your point of view changes so often that it rarely makes any sense anyhow. It wasn't long ago you were defending Ross Cassell. You flip-flop like the cook at a Stampede cookout. MG>> This is the thanks he gets for his efforts; he askes a question MG>> to inform concerned downlinks what's going on with Todd's MG>> downlinks when Todd's FTP server developed problems, even stating MG>> publically that it's not a slight on Todd's abilities, but a MG>> genuine request for information, and gets jumped all over by MG>> members of R12 and the Z1B hubs just because they wrongly ASSume MG>> that he was attacking them again. Their paranoia taints MG>> /everything/ so that that which is not an attack, they still MG>> /view/ as an attack. RW> I think you've gotten the wrong idea...I'll agree that the R12 nitwits RW> have twisted a thorn in Ross, but he's no angel...don't get me wrong, RW> I'd still be on Ross's side in that fight. I never said he's an angel. In fact, the PAB members have critisized him in private, and Ross actions are a part of the reason we made the PAB instead of joining the NAB. --- GoldED/386 3.0.1-dam3 * Origin: MikE'S MaDHousE: WelComE To ThE AsYluM! (1:134/11) .