Subj : 1:10/345
To   : Roy Witt
From : Michael Grant
Date : Wed Nov 28 2001 12:35 am

Hello Roy.

27 Nov 01 17:19, you wrote to me:

 MG>> Ross has been vocal in the past in the feud between the Z1B and
 MG>> the NAB; and it was a factor in my not joining the NAB; however,
 MG>> of late he has been trying to smooth things over and let bygones
 MG>> be bygones, until Todd jumped down his throat for no good reason;

 RW> That's Todd for ya...

 MG>>  then you, ever the opportunist, have to add in your little
 MG>> punishment just because you hate the man so much.

 RW> Actually, Ross has been quite vocal in the echo when he needn't be.
 RW> Netmail would have worked just fine to quell the tirade between he and
 RW> Todd.

Ross Cassell has stated publically and often that the Z1B hubs do not respond 
to his netmails. It's a fact that has not been denied by the Z1B. If that mode 
of communication does not work, you leave Ross no choice but to use echomail.

 RW>  And don't forget, this isn't a punishment until Ross makes
 RW> another slip up and breaks the rules here again.

Any "punishment" is the moderator's job. Dale was not the moderator, but choose 
to impose a censorship of his own design upon Ross.

 MG>> I'm beginning to think that you have no interest in making
 MG>> peace
 MG>> with the NAB; you seem to do everything you can to further
 MG>> inflame the situation and cause more animosity.

 RW> Hmmmm. It'd be nice to stay neutral here; I didn't see Dale jumping on
 RW> Ross' ass for his language, I saw David's message that he should hold
 RW> it down. Then, instead of holding it down, Ross further inflamed
 RW> the situation by ranting about how he was picked out as the
 RW> instigator.

Look at time stamps. Ross responded /first/ to Todd, and didn't even have time 
to respond to David's warning before Dale jumped all over him.

 RW> Meanwhile, David also told Todd to quit, being as how he's a Z1B
 RW> Tier something hub and should know better.

I've commented on that. I felt David did the right thing; it was Dale's actions 
that were unwarranted.

 RW> When Ross continued cutting Todd down and bitching about the
 RW> message that he stop his use of language not wanted here, that's
 RW> when I saw Dale jump into it with his ERN link cut - warning.

That happened /immediately/ after Todd's message. Ross was not even given a 
chance to say one word afterwards; Dale issued his "edict" immediately 
afterwards.

 RW> How else is the moderator or Dale supposed to deal with Ross,
 RW> the mail mover, without bothering those who link to both for
 RW> echomail?

As a moderator, you know well that one must wait to see if the abuser heeds the 
warning. David issued a warning /after/ Ross' post, and Dale didn't wait for a 
response from Ross.

 RW> If he were to cut his echomail link, everyone would be cut off
 RW> from this and a few other echoes, both sides of the cut. Then we
 RW> all suffer.

And cutting links is better? Should your uplink cut your link if you say 
something in a public echo that he or she doesn't like?

 RW> Cutting Ross' ERN link doesn't make anyone suffer, as the links
 RW> around Ross are still there with 1:106/1 and the other node, I
 RW> forget the number.

Today it's only an ERN link; who's to say that tomorrow it won't be an Echomail 
link? We've already seen the RC12 cut an echomail link for no good reason.

 RW> I see Ross can't constrain himself, as he continues to answer
 RW> these posts in the NAB and FN_SYSOP echoes.  When he got very
 RW> few replies and failed to bait Dale into the FN_SYSOP echo, he
 RW> carried it into the NAB echo.

As I said; now they've made him into the great "boogey man", so yeah, I'd speak 
out as well if I was in his position. OTOH if they had just warned him as 
moderators are /supposed/ to do, he'd likely have shut up. His ravings 
elsewhere are the Z1B's own doing.

 RW> That won't be any different than what he got in FN, so he's
 RW> beating his brains out for nothing.  Unless of course he gets
 RW> some sympathy from Seaborn. Not much solice in that and I know
 RW> Brenda won't get into it. Her phylosophy is 'move the mail' and
 RW> forget the politics.

I very much respect Brenda Donovan; and it's in part the fact that she was the 
Hub victimized by the politics of the Z1B that makes me think that their 
practices are shameful.

 MG>> Some people seem to want a perpetual state of war, and you fit
 MG>> that description to a tee.

 RW> That's odd!  I don't see Dale running all over Fidonet ranting and
 RW> raving about this, nor anything else that's been said here in the past
 RW> 6 or 8 months.

In the past 6 or 8 months, Ross has been trying very hard to be diplomatic to 
the Z1B and try and smooth over the animosities he's built up in the past. 
It';s not something that's easy for him to do, but he clearly /was/ making an 
effort. I've been watching it closely and with interest, despite the fact that 
I was silent on the issue until now. This is the thanks he gets for his 
efforts; he askes a question to inform concerned downlinks what's going on with 
Todd's downlinks when Todd's FTP server developed problems, even stating 
publically that it's not a slight on Todd's abilities, but a genuine request 
for information, and gets jumped all over by members of R12 and the Z1B hubs 
just because they wrongly ASSume that he was attacking them again. Their 
paranoia taints /everything/ so that that which is not an attack, they still 
/view/ as an attack.

I blame Darrell Salter for this incident. he started it by coming in here and 
attacking Ross for his efforts to communicate. Note that once the fire is 
started, the perpetrator is far from the scene...


--- GoldED/386 3.0.1-dam3
 * Origin: MikE'S MaDHousE: WelComE To ThE AsYluM! (1:134/11)

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