Subj : z1b link To : TODD COCHRANE From : Lawrence Garvin Date : Wed Apr 18 2001 08:54 am TODD wrote to LAWRENCE at 06:02 18 Apr: -> Todd, I think its irresponsible not to pay heed to the fact that at -> that time the technology (as in data communications) and the expense -> (as in long distance telephone charges) were only available to a few -> (who could/would afford it). TC> I know what the technology cost and it did not justify the dollars TC> they were charging.. At 20 per head per month cost were covered in TC> short order.. If you believe that, then I suggest you might know what the technology costs TODAY, but are not apparently aware of what it cost six years ago. We have two issues at point, here. One.. the hubs pre-Internet, when it took 3-4 hours of long distance time per day to move echomail alone.. when the filebone could barely be moved via a single dialup modem because there was insufficient bandwidth in a V.34 modem to move 24 hours of files in 24 hours. I know these things because I co-designed and co-founded a co-op committed to providing a full echomail/backbone feed in 1996. To do that we needed two NODES, because it took one node all by itself to move just the filebone in and out of the distribution hub. Now... apply that situation to the COST involved for those nodes to transport that stuff in/out via long distance. We hadn't quite reached .10/minute long distance in 1995, so you'll accept with ease that it cost a zonehub about $25 - $30/day in long distance charges just to move the mail -- and that's not even counting the filebone! Two... post-Internet... Then... George Peace, quickly followed by John Souvestre, and later by Ken Wilson and then Bob Seaborn provided access to echomail and files via Internet connectivity. While this reduced their several hundred dollar a month long distance bills, it also wasn't cheap in 1995 to put in dedicated Internet access. Arguably their monthly expenses INCREASED! The choices were basically 56K DDS (~$500/month), Fractional T-1 (if it was available ($500-$1000/month), or full T-1 ($1000-$1500/month depending on where you were. George's might have been on the lower side since he's a bit closer to the center of the eastern seaboard metropolitan areas, but I distinctly remember John S. mentioning that his circuit was $1500/month in New Orleans (wasn't much technology in the Big Easy at that time). None of these costs include the capital required to invest in hardware. Bob can speak for himself, but I imagine the cost of circuits in the middle of nowhere-Saskatchewan are even more expensive than in the middle of nowhere-Louisiana. Fifty downlinks at $20/month would be cost recovery -- maybe. I only recall a fairly short period of time when George and John both had in excess of fifty downlinks each. Shortly after that, something better than dialup (read: ISDN) became available to some, and additional hubs began to grow. Look at the current "fidohub" list in the Fidonews and note the types of connectivity now in place for the majority of those listed. You'll find that those that are not dialup are ISDN or ADSL with the exception of only a very few. ADSL only became available in most cities in late 1999. ISDN, though available as early as 1994, was a rather expensive technology to implement for a casual user. My 64k ISDN link in 1998 (immediately pre-ADSL) cost me $225/month. TC> I have had a Internet business since day one and am expanding at TC> this very time and will soon have out new server farm up in Hawaii TC> with more bandwidth than most will ever dream about.. I fail to see where bragging contributes anything to the point. TC> Fido has been about cost recovery not paying your house payment off TC> the backs of sysops. They are were appreciated by many but cost are TC> minimal you can run a hub now for less than 20 per month so no one TC> should be paying more than a dollar for a feed now... And.. again.. my comments were not about NOW.. but about THEN... in reference to your allegations of "monopoly".. of which, while there were few WILLING, it was by far anything resembling a monopoly. Incidentally... your argument above was hashed, preached, and squashed solidly in 1996/1997. It's old news. It was discounted then, and it'll be discounted just as easily today. I know this, because I was the one preaching the loudest about the 'commercialization' of echomail distribution and the 'profit-hungry' hub operators. . . I W A S W R O N G. --- * Origin: lawrence@eforest.net | The Enchanted Forest (1:106/6018) .