Subj : Re: How can JS intercept relayout calls?
To   : Geoff
From : Brendan Eich
Date : Thu Dec 23 2004 02:09 pm

Geoff wrote:

> I'd like to apologise.  I'm sorry.
> 
> I posted what I thought was a proper question in the proper newsgroup,  
> Brendan's short, sharp reply came across to me as rude and arrogant, as well 
> as wrong.  It looked as if he hadn't read or understood the message.  Still 
> looks like that, in fact.


Why exactly do you say that?

Your original post described a problem, but, even in its Subject line 
("How can JS intercept relayout calls?"), jumped to a conclusion.  I 
referred you to the dom group, where Martin Honnen quickly came up with 
the standards-based solution that works in all browsers 
(news://news.mozilla.org:119/cq9fvv$d283@ripley.netscape.com), requires 
no new event, and in any event would not require JS engine changes.

So what exactly did I miss in your original message that justified its 
posting to the jseng group?

If I picked the dom group as the "right" group and you want to quibble 
that it's not the only right group, I give up -- it's likelier than any 
other I know of to get you the answer you sought.  If I seemed to sure 
of myself, I'll have to learn to stammer :-/.


> However, just because he appeared rude and ignorant was no excuse for me to 
> do so.


I apologize too -- no sense in looking rude or arrogant when I was 
merely trying to point you in the right direction, and spank you for 
flouting decades-old netiquette about not removing followup-to:.  Sorry, 
I didn't mean to be rude.  Just stern.


> The DOM group still seems to me to be the wrong (or at least 
> counterintuitive) place for me to post that question, although I take the 
> point that Layout may be appropriate.  I stand corrected.


It's not a big deal to pick the wrong group for your first message to 
that group.  It happens all the time that people post to jseng when they 
should post to dom.

What is a big deal is ignoring the redirect (and evidently the answer 
you got from Martin), stripping the followup-to:, and going back to the 
group to which you first misposted.

I referred you to dom precisely because folks like Martin help in dom to 
sort out issues that get bounced there from jseng.  Some who read the 
layout group might also have been able to help, but from the thounsands 
of misdirected DOM, CSS, and DHTML questions sent to jseng over the 
years, the dom group was the best place to get good answers, in my opinion.


> I'm happy to take 
> your word for it, but in all honesty I can't see me trusting Brendan's word 
> on anything, now or in the future, no matter how experienced he may be.


Who cares about me, no one should trust authority blindly.  Please don't 
put shaver on some pedestal.

I think shaver's message made a different point, one about non-blind 
*listening* to what people who have been around Mozilla for years have 
to say.  Then (without trusting and parroting) considering what you've 
heard, reading the group to which you were directed, and drawing your 
own conclusion based on what you read.

It seems to me that you're still rejecting the redirect to dom on 
pedantic grounds having to do with the conclusion ("JS intercept 
relayout calls") to which you jumped.  Yet over in the dom group, Martin 
has already provided the fix to what appears to be a CSS-P, or "DHTML", 
bug in your page.

The nature of the jseng group, the layering of the DOM code on top of 
XPConnect on top of SpiderMonkey, the separate newsgroups dedicated to 
each of those modules, and the demonstrated good answers given in the 
dom group are all facts, not people standing on authority that someone 
wanted you to trust and parrot.

I'm the last person who believes in trust & parrot, but I'm no fan of 
banging your head against the wrong tree, either -- and I'm tired of 
misdirected posts in the jseng group that have nothing to do with the JS 
engines that Mozilla hosts, or the JS language specified by ECMA-262 etc.


> Also, to try to put an end to this part of the thread, it's not a flagrant 
> violation of nettiquette to change the followup if you believe what that the 
> person who did it was wrong.  I did (and in Brendan's case still do) believe 
> that.


If you still think the jseng group is the right group, then you aren't 
paying attention.


> And yes, I'm posting this message to both newsgroups because I believe 
> the apology should appear in both.
> 
> Many thanks for your patience,
> 
>     	    	    	Geoff


Sorry mine ran out last time.  It's running out again, so I'll go do 
something else for a while.

/be

.