Subj : Re: CV, work-history, 91C, CompSci?, Applet? (was: Software Job Ma...) To : comp.programming,comp.software-eng From : Chris Hills Date : Sun Sep 11 2005 10:31 am In article , JXStern writes >On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:36:57 -0700, rem642b@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, >see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote: >>But I'm confused. I thought you said just earlier that at the last >>place you worked you were basically forbidden to write any >>documentation, but now you say in your current shop (which would have >>to be the last place you've worked, unless you don't work in your >>current shop) "they" do documentation in HTML. I'm confused. Are the >>last/current work/shop the same place, > >Last = previous. Exactly. I think Roberts main problem is his communications skills. His definitions seem to be different to the norm but instead of adapting he rants at the world. If you do that the world ignores you. >>> >As I have run, in the past a small specialist job agency I can tell you >>> >without references there is no way I would put you forward for anything, >>> And I suggest he take note of this. >> >>And I still don't know what you're talking about: >>- References for job appl: Names of people who know me personally and via work. >>- Citations at the end of a published paper or in a bibliography. >>Which of the two is required to get a job in writing computer software? > >Both help, neither is necessary, Both help but references of people who know your work is usually essential. This is because people have been known to completely fabricate CV's. That said no one ever (well almost ever) put up a reference that gave them a bad reference. It is really just to check the CV is genuine. >of the comment, but only on the more general point that a recruiter >will want you to jump through hoops that may not have much to do with >the actual work or even the actual process of getting hired by the >client company. This can be true. It depends on the agency. > Recruiters, don't even get me going on that topic! Or me. That is why I did my own. Mainly to clients I knew with engineers I knew. After 30 years in the business you get to know a lot of people. >The moral of the story is, do what you must to get by, usually you can >work out something reasonable that will satisfy the more reasonable >recruiters. Yes. It's like exams. You do what you need to pass even though you won't use half of it again and PLEASE don't tell them they are wrong on definitions etc. It is their game and you want to get hired. > The ones who keep coming back wanting one more piece of >data, forget them, they're not going to get you hired anyway. Probably. Though I doubt that Robert will be able to differentiate between the good and the bad from what I have seen here. So go with what the ask for until you get a job.... and use several (5 or 19 agencies) not just one. >>> Many, really most, hiring in the industry these days involves >>> recruiters, who must be satisfied as gatekeepers before you get "put >>> forward". >> >>Yes. I know that. I've been trying to find out how to get past the >>recruiter to where the actual hiring manager sees my interest in the >>job that was advertised. My best guess so-far is to submit a resume >>which lists all the keywords the recruiter is looking for. > >Any one job tends to require only a particular handfull, be ready to >customize your resume for each opportunity. Most recruiters will >suggest this, btw. Absolutely. You should be able to customise your CV to emphasise different aspects. In one version a job my only take one line in another two paragraphs. > The matter of whether the list should actually >reflect your expertise is generally left as a personal decision. >Recruiters, I'm telling ya, ... NO. The CV MUST be accurate. By customising I mean depending on the job depends how much detail you put into the previous jobs and skills you have. DO NOT invent anything. I am not so worried about the sin of omission. >>which is way too long to fit on one printed page, so I really need help >>trimming it down to appropriate one-page size. > >Try it this way and that way. The one-page thing is a suggestion, >btw, I haven't really used a one-pager ever. But if it's longer, make >sure you have some nice bullet-points on page one, as they probably >won't read further - but their database/search software *will*! My Cv is 4 pages. A one page summary with details on the further three. You want a nice layout that is clean and easy to read. Use a sensible clean font. I tend to use Arial, Hevlictia or these days Lucidia Grande Plain ACSII is out as you need bold, underline, bullets, headings in a larger type etc. This is why you need word. (or similar). this is all about presentation. Even an entry level programmer has to be able to present him/herself in a professional manner. You need to be able to print out and send to people a good looking CV. You also need to be able to email it as well. Preferably as a PDF though most find word acceptable >>> Would I grant an interview or offer a job to Robert Maas, if I had >>> some legacy code he might be qualified on, or some light web work he >>> could probably help out with? Well, all I can say is, "maybe". >> >>The problem with legacy code is that it's already written in a >>particular programming language, so anyone you hire would be required >>to be able to work in that particular language. There are more than a >>hundred different such languages, and the chance that it's one of the >>twenty I've used is rather small. Stop making excuses. >That ain't true, Robert. Probably 80% of the software ever written >was in the top 20% of languages, more likely the top five or so >languages. I would agree. Cobol Fortran C C++ Ada Pascal (Visual) Basic Forth (Niche market) >Anyway, the trick is to find the stuff that *is* written >in something you do know, Exactly. > or can fake convincingly and deliver in >anyway. Not sure about this. Especially with Robert. >>Do you have any new projects you'd like to start, where the particular >>language isn't important, so I could use whatever language (or >>combination of languages) I'm best able to use toward your goal? Language is not usually your choice. It is that of the customer. It will probably be one of the once I listed above. You will also need to either do the documentation or read the documentation they will send you. Their documentation is more than likely to be in PDF. They will probably expect you to write yours in word... >>> not so many developers ever touch a newsgroup, and it's something in >>> his favor (IMHO) that he's even here. >> >>Well thank you for that compliment. Now if we could only figure out >>some way that a majority of the software hiring managers in this area >>(south end of San Francisco Bay, i.e. "Silicon Valley" although more >>technically correct "Santa Clara Valley" or "San Jose metropolitan >>area") would browse either of these newsgroups and notice that I'm >>available and that I've written some interesting and thoughtful >>articles Others judge if they are interesting and thoughtful. Where were they published? >about software practice, including TDD (Test Driven >>Development), unit testing, rapid prototyping, agile programming, etc. Where are they published? >Gather it up in a folder and take it along, it may help out, >somewhere. But be careful, in other places it would likely hurt. I have had that. Turned up with some stuff and the manager panicked (but did take a copy of it al for his own use :-( >Remember my major advice, that getting hired these days is all about >being BLAND, not super-competent, not even especially >average-competent. Its not a case of being bland but not being "strange" This is why I have asked about Robert's social skills. > If you have opinions and write papers, you will >scare 50% or more of the hiring authorities. Just the way it is these >days. Very true unless you are a "known" person and that is why they are hiring you. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ .