Subj : Re: CV, work-history, 91C, CompSci?, Applet? (was: Software Job Ma...) To : comp.programming,comp.software-eng From : JXStern Date : Sun Sep 11 2005 05:21 am On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:36:57 -0700, rem642b@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote: >But I'm confused. I thought you said just earlier that at the last >place you worked you were basically forbidden to write any >documentation, but now you say in your current shop (which would have >to be the last place you've worked, unless you don't work in your >current shop) "they" do documentation in HTML. I'm confused. Are the >last/current work/shop the same place, Last = previous. It's the current one where it's practically forbidden to do conventional doc, but they do have at least some HTML user doc. As to what I do, it depends on the circumstances, but in general it's a lot more than the shops tend to average, as the averages tend to hover around zero, no matter what they preach in principle. >> >As I have run, in the past a small specialist job agency I can tell you >> >without references there is no way I would put you forward for anything, >> And I suggest he take note of this. > >And I still don't know what you're talking about: >- References for job appl: Names of people who know me personally and via work. >- Citations at the end of a published paper or in a bibliography. >Which of the two is required to get a job in writing computer software? Both help, neither is necessary, nor was I commenting on the specifics of the comment, but only on the more general point that a recruiter will want you to jump through hoops that may not have much to do with the actual work or even the actual process of getting hired by the client company. Recruiters, don't even get me going on that topic! The moral of the story is, do what you must to get by, usually you can work out something reasonable that will satisfy the more reasonable recruiters. The ones who keep coming back wanting one more piece of data, forget them, they're not going to get you hired anyway. >> Many, really most, hiring in the industry these days involves >> recruiters, who must be satisfied as gatekeepers before you get "put >> forward". > >Yes. I know that. I've been trying to find out how to get past the >recruiter to where the actual hiring manager sees my interest in the >job that was advertised. My best guess so-far is to submit a resume >which lists all the keywords the recruiter is looking for. Any one job tends to require only a particular handfull, be ready to customize your resume for each opportunity. Most recruiters will suggest this, btw. The matter of whether the list should actually reflect your expertise is generally left as a personal decision. Recruiters, I'm telling ya, ... >which is way too long to fit on one printed page, so I really need help >trimming it down to appropriate one-page size. Try it this way and that way. The one-page thing is a suggestion, btw, I haven't really used a one-pager ever. But if it's longer, make sure you have some nice bullet-points on page one, as they probably won't read further - but their database/search software *will*! >> Would I grant an interview or offer a job to Robert Maas, if I had >> some legacy code he might be qualified on, or some light web work he >> could probably help out with? Well, all I can say is, "maybe". > >The problem with legacy code is that it's already written in a >particular programming language, so anyone you hire would be required >to be able to work in that particular language. There are more than a >hundred different such languages, and the chance that it's one of the >twenty I've used is rather small. That ain't true, Robert. Probably 80% of the software ever written was in the top 20% of languages, more likely the top five or so languages. Anyway, the trick is to find the stuff that *is* written in something you do know, or can fake convincingly and deliver in anyway. >Do you have any new projects you'd like to start, where the particular >language isn't important, so I could use whatever language (or >combination of languages) I'm best able to use toward your goal? Not really in that position right now myself, sorry. >> not so many developers ever touch a newsgroup, and it's something in >> his favor (IMHO) that he's even here. > >Well thank you for that compliment. Now if we could only figure out >some way that a majority of the software hiring managers in this area >(south end of San Francisco Bay, i.e. "Silicon Valley" although more >technically correct "Santa Clara Valley" or "San Jose metropolitan >area") would browse either of these newsgroups and notice that I'm >available and that I've written some interesting and thoughtful >articles about software practice, including TDD (Test Driven >Development), unit testing, rapid prototyping, agile programming, etc. >.. Gather it up in a folder and take it along, it may help out, somewhere. But be careful, in other places it would likely hurt. Remember my major advice, that getting hired these days is all about being BLAND, not super-competent, not even especially average-competent. If you have opinions and write papers, you will scare 50% or more of the hiring authorities. Just the way it is these days. >> Sort of reminds me of Kent Beck! > .... >Anyway, except that we each were at U.Oregon at some time, I see no >major similarity between the two of us. What do you see like that?? Maybe then it's not entirely a coincidence that neither of you has any great fondness for documentation? Do you happen to remember any instructors at the time saying such things? Just wondering. I suggest you read up on XP, just so you know what kind of discussions people have these days about things. I am NOT recommending you agree with it all. Archives of these newsgroups will lead you to more than you want to know, Google will take you further, picking up the earliest books on XP will complete the masochistic exercise. Actually, haven't you already taken part in a dozen such discussions? The TDD stuff, through a couple of local characters, is especially close in spirit to much of XP. J. .