Subj : Re: CV, work-history, 91C, CompSci?, Applet? (was: Software Job Ma...) To : comp.programming,comp.software-eng From : Chris Hills Date : Thu Sep 08 2005 10:19 am In article , Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes >(Regarding MicroSoft Word and documents of its format:) >> From: Chris Hills >> The use of plain text simply says you can not use the current standard >> tools of your profession. > >I have never programmed in APL, which requires a special character set. >All the langauges I've programmed in, both assembly langugage and >higher-level, have used plain ASCII text files as source files. Not one >of them used MicroSoft Word format files as source or as library or as >object or as executable or as anything else associated with it. Lisp >documentation strings are in plain text. JavaDoc is in plain text. >Neither is in MicroSoft Word format. There is nothing in my profession, >writing software, that requires or uses MicroSoft Word format in any >way. This shows why you have been out of work for a decade and are likely to be so for the foreseeable future. There is a LOT more to programing than writing source code in an ascii editor. You use Word for CV's and documentation. BTW I did once come across some one who wrote a program in word as a doc file. renamed it to *.c and wondered why the compiler did not like it. >I have never claimed expertise with MicroSoft Word. I am not seeking a >job using MicroSoft Word, such as word-processing, or >receptionist/secretary, or advertising copy, etc. Accordingly what you >said, that MicroSoft Word instead of plain text is a tool of my >profession, seems to be completely wrong. Word is the de-facto standard (for the majority of the world) word processor for documentation, CV's resumes reports, srequiremtns and specification etc Doing documentation in plain ascii went out over a decade ago. It appears you are at least a decade out of date in the tools of your profession. As I said the rest of the people on this NG who have responded are all in work in the SW industry around the world and you all tell you the same thing. So don't tell me I am wrong. I am telling you what is. Why ask for advice and then tell everyone they are all wrong? > >> >- References are names of people who know me personally and are well >> > acquainted with my recent work. >> There are standard ways of laying out references. > >It's not a good idea to include references in a resume, nor even to say >"references available on request", so I'm going to ignore your remarks. Again you ask for advice from those who are actually doing and the ignore it. As I have run, in the past a small specialist job agency I can tell you without references there is no way I would put you forward for anything, >> >A >> >vast majority of people aren't willing to even try learning how, even >> >if offered free instruction. > >> It depends who offers the free instruction. > >So like if somebody "famous", like a movie/TV star or sports star, >offered cruddy instruction, they'd accept, but a non-famous person >offering quality instruction, they couldn't care less? No. People will take instruction form people they feel comfortable with, famous or not. You do not seem in synch with the norms of this industry. Your attitudes seem a bit "strange" and as I have said people don't like "strange". In any event you are not qualified to instruct. At least I have seen no evidence of the skills required. Certainly not an understanding of modern Sw engineering. Also you don't seem to have the tools required to turn out any support material. Ie the documentation. >> You are NOT seeking work for which >> you are qualified if you do not have basic literacy and numeracy for >> writing reports, designs, requirements specifications, resumes etc. >> using standard tools like word. > >Your premise is invalid, My preemies is VERY valid. Unlike you I work in the industry and have been employed and I have employed people so I know from both directions what sort of skills are required You don't have them, > so your conclusion is unproved. Errrr I am in work You have not worked for a decade. Any other proof required? > I do in fact >have basic literacy and numeracy for all of those kinds of tasks, You have not given any reasonable indication of that here. You definition an understanding of many items are at odds with the industry (ie the rest of us here who have commented who are working inthe industry across the world) >although I've never been required as part of a job to fit the >requirements into any standard form, but I did learn UML diagrams in >one of my recent classes, That's good. > and wrote several using a drawing program >that was available on MS-Windows. drawing package or a case tool? > I'm quite capable of writing a first >draft of technical reports or designs or requirements, providing that I >know the basic information needed (such as if I'm documenting software >that I wrote and/or designed, or I'm writing up requirements that I >conceived or which I brainstormed with somebody such that sufficient >notes were taken). But when it comes to converting my first draft into >a polished document (nice formatting, nice layout, nice artistic >balance, pretty colors in the opinion of the advertising department, >etc.), I would leave that to somebody who specializes in document >production. Sorry that is what a SW engineer is expected to do as a matter of course. Things have changed a LOT in the last couple of decades. In the 70's a programer woudl write in ascii and send it to some one else (a secretary? ) to polish in a document processor. Not any more for about 10 years the Programmer is expected to turn out well formatted and laid out documents. word is the most common tool used. As I said if you can't do that they you don't have the BASIC skills required. >I'll stick to software and preliminary technical >documentation. Preliminary documentation is in word format. You idea are a decade out of date in an industry that re-invents it self every 5 years. If you stick to your current (very out moded views) you will never get employment. >> you appear to be out of synch with your peers. > >I don't have any peers. I agree. Not here you don't have any peers. This is a SW engineering NG. A Software Engineer you are not. > > >> Why have you been unemployed for 10 years? >> >Because was unemployed ten years ago, and nobody changed that status >> >quo by hiring me since then. >> why has no one hired you in that decade? > >I'm not privy to the mental processes within the brains of each person >who decided not to hire me, so I don't have the information necessary >to answer your question. This is obtuse and wilful stupidity on you part. You know the reasons they gave and you should have been able to pick up a lot from the interviews. You seem to have a lot of problems, as this thread and you rown comments show, with interacting with people that is probably your main problem. >> What work did you go for and (if known) why didn't you get it? > >I have several megabytes of such information. Please arrange to drop by >some time and browse it. Idiot. >> >> Try a change of career. >> >I'm already doing that. >> to what? > >Commercial software (what I did before was in-house custom software). Change of career from SW development. You seem quite unsuited to sw development in the current industry. >> >includes designing the data >> >structures and algorithms to be used, then writing code and performing >> >unit-testing >> sounds good > >Thanks for approving some of my skills. I am in a position to do so. > Do you know of any employment >available which can use such skills but which does not require me to >have specific experience I don't have? NO. Thos skills are only part of those required for programming. There are other, basic, skils you don't appear to have. I know of quite a few jobs going at the moment. Judging by your comments and attitudes here you are not suitable sw work in any company I know. >> > and writing in-sourcefile technical documentation >> Not good. What about the requirements spec, design notes etc (in a >> standard format which is NOT ASCII) > >I do not have access to any text format other than ASCII (plain or >HTML), and I don't have money to purchase such facilities, so your >attempt to harass me in this regard is a waste of your typing effort. Then use a public library, ask a friend, family etc. Given the number of PC's around you MUST know some one (several people) with a PC and a word processor. If you don't this would indicate that you are probably lacking in social skills required in the workplace. >I've written requirements spec and design notes, in ASCII. So did we all 10-15 years ago. >But most of >the work I've done was research or R&D where I didn't know from the >outset what techniques would be most effective and worth putting into >production, so in those cases there was no requirements spec at the >start. Would you like to see design notes for one of my projects, in >plain ASCII? If so, which one? No. I don't have time if you are not going to fit them into the formats I use. YOUR loss not mine. If you want people look at you information to give you work YOU have to fit in to their methods and formats. If you insist of doing it your way you will not get work. >> send me a word or pdf of something you have done. > >I don't currently have the resources to do that. Will you provide me >with a free (i.e. your expense) I see you are not really interested in getting work. If you work you would find these tools. Why should I make any effort if you will not. There are plenty of others who will. Therefore you go to the bottom of the pile marked "awkward" See any library, many help centres. Ask you local religious leader (vicar, priest, imam etc) I am sure they will let you use their system and even help with a modern CV. > copy of whatever software, for my >Macintosh Performa 600 running System 7.5.5, is needed to produce the >something you want me to send you? (Note: I have less than 17 megabytes >of available disk space for whatever software you send me plus the >actual work you want me to produce for you.) See above. In a VERY busy world with LOTS of qualified and experienced people who do work in the way industry requires why should I make a lot of effort to see what you can do when you will make no effort to show me? > >> I think you have been asked to supply a resume in a standard file >> format first. > >MicroSoft Word is a proprietary product of MicroSoft Corporation. It is >not an industry standard unless you believe MicroSoft is the only >company in the world. It is also used by ALL the open-source (ie FREE) office platforms on x86PC, MAC and Linux. You don't have to use WORD. if you are going to print it you could use Tex or many others. >They try to dominate everybody else, they even >commit crimes to cheat other companies out of their work, and by such >means they destroy other companies, running them out of business. Whilst that may well be very true it is irrelevant to this discussion of you producing a CV in a form at people want to get you work. >> >You have a stupid attitude, just like that person who interviewed me >> >for the position writing CAD/Lisp software for one-of-a-kind test >> >vacuum chambers, who kept remarking how the job would be boring, and >> >then he just assumed I wouldn't want the job and never even offered it >> >to me, even though I had expressed an interest in it, and I would have >> >accepted it if offered. >> It sounds like he was trying to dissuade you from the job. Why? If you >> can work that out you are half way there. > >It's obvious to me that he had an belief that people who programmed in >Lisp at Stanford must be some kind of Ph.D. student at Stanford, >interested only in A.I., who would refuse to do any sort of "boring" >work such as he offered me. He was completely mistaken. I was helpless >to change his mind. Do you believe that you, in my place, could have >changed his mind, deprogrammed him from his stupid belief? No idea. But then I am a different person. However this does put a question mark (as do many other aspects of this thread) over your social skills.How well you are going to interact with the rest of the team/company,. Nothing so far has given anyone any confidence in you >Or was there >nothing I could have done different from what I already did? Well you have refused all the advice that has been given so far.. >> EVERYONE in this thread has offered advice and most of it is to >> change your attitude. Think about that. > >My attitude is that I have 22+ years experience programming computers, >that I still can program computers, that I'm available to perform paid >work programming computers, and I wish somebody would offer me a job, >either programming, or something else that I can do. >What part of that attitude needs changing? !!!!!! Read the rest of the posts in this email Most of the important points you have dismissed, said are irrelevant or are wrong. Most you have rambled on about with obtuse and irrelevant arguments. >By the way, since this discussion is very specific to *my* effort to >find employment, not of general interest in the entire topic of >computer programming or software engineering, why don't you join my >Yahoo! Group and discuss my personal employment search there? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/helprobertmaasfindemployment/ No time to waste on it. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ .