Subj : Re: Categories? resume references? (was: How much should I charge f...) To : comp.lang.lisp,comp.programming,comp.lang.java.programmer From : David Date : Sun Aug 28 2005 05:13 am Hello Robert, Sorry for the delay. I've been away from home for a few days. On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:28:55 UTC, rem642b@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote: > > From: "David" > > I noticed your resumes don't include an indication of expertise in > > the various categories you provide. > > Which kinds of categories? Various programming languages? Various > platforms? Various application areas? A general list of languages, platforms, and so on doesn't give me much of an idea about what you're capable of, or if you would match my employment needs, when other parts of your resume or CV do not indicate that information. I understand you've been rewriting again and my view of your resume is what was posted a week ago, I don't have time to find it again and see what might have changed. I'll address my previous comments where I can recall about them. My first interest was in C++ and was related to work. You've since indicated you had a course in C++ and that is why it was listed. Since my immediate need is for people who would be up to speed on my design and productive quickly, that doesn't sound realistic even when the C++ skills I think that are needed are fairly minimal. I also know of others that need various Java or PDA applications written. This is new to me, so I'm not entirely ready to help out after my normal day ends. Similarly, just listing operating systems or development environments doesn't give me much to go on. Many years ago during the first five to ten years of my experience I did list the 40 languages I knew and was productive in (not just could read) and so on. That really wasn't helpful to the people I submitted my resume even when I put in experience levels. I also had a terrible time with the automated systems and headhunters of the day looking for unrelated keywords that meant something to them. In my case AS/400, RPG, COBOL, and similar experience was forcing the people who really needed to fill boring $100K business positions to contact me. Nowhere on my resume did it say these technologoies were used together. Yes, I knew the AS/400 very well... but it was all internals knowledge useful only to IBM. Adding a few well chosen "Objectives" and dropping the experience that I could live without mentioning helped my add room for other more useful information. It is good to have specialized resumes, but don't show them all to a prospective employer. They just get confused. Have a general one that whets there appetite to learn more aobut you and contact you. Use more specified versions that are customized for a particular position when you are ready to contact them. For instance, just sending me a resume with your C++ or Java work isn't helpful until you can address why it is helpful to my core product development needs. That may take a little research to find. > What indication would you like in each category? Years experience? > Specific major software I've written? Given what I've read from you over the years and what I've had to review from prospective candidates, I prefer people that give an accurate objective statement, some indication of familiar technologies and an accurate indication of expertise, but mostly this information comes in the form of desciptions about past experience. It helps me get to know what you've done to help others and what you might to for me. I also do a phone interview with those that seem worth learning more about. It is a huge turn off for me if the person indicated some level of expertise in a couple subjects and can't answer simple questions or say anything more than the resume already did. At every level you want to whet their appetite for utilizing your skills and not dissapoint them. A good description is quite enough. What your responsibility was, perhaps the major technologies, and what you accomplished for the employer. I know you don't feel employed. Tell people what you did for others. As for any of your handicaps, they can be pluses if you sell them properly. They need not be mentioned. Some people call this arrogance but many people can be honest about their abilities and find much more work. For instance, you've mentioned remote work and about 20 hours per week maximum as part of the things you want in a job. Okay then, find employers able to use that. Part of that might be smaller projects that can't justify full time help. If you want to work remotely, don't worry about the skills the employer needs and instead listen to what they need and find a way to help them if you are a reasonable match. Grow repeat customers. This cannot be acoomplished with mass mailings, specialized resumes, and classic big-company-methods. Learn to sell yourself. If you want, you might explore teaming up with a good salesman that can help you find the work. That keep each of you busy doing what you might do best. > > I went over to your web resume last night and tried to check out your > > languages and C++. There was no info or C++ category. > > I'm not sure what you mean by the "info" category. You listed C++ exactly once on the multipage resume you published a web link to. I was unable to find any further information about what you knew or had used the language for. I did find other language categories though. It was pretty much trial and error finding what your recent activities and accomplishments were. > I list C++ on my very latest (2005.June) resume because I took a > beginning C++ class this past Winter. Naturally it wouldn't be listed > on any resume prior to this year, including the most recently uploaded > resume which is the 2003 rearrangement of the 1998 resume and the 2004 > MicroSoft Word formattings of that rearrangement. I'd suggest listing C++ only if you could be useful to an employer in that language. You could probably sight read anything and be fairly useful. A recent applicant claimed to be a C++ expert and could only list six years experience using computers. Perhaps his definition of expert and mine differ. I've used C++ since about 1989 and have seen many compilers, tools, and language definitions. I tend to rate myself mid-to-high but not an expert. Anyway the applicant couldn't complete "strcpy" given the function definition and asking him not to use any other functions. There wasn't a need to ask any more detail about his experience. Sadly he couldn't tell me much about his career so even as a junior developer he wouldn't have been worth pursuing. I don't mind growing team members. I just hate wading through the muck when a great leader is what I'm after. > The only version of the 2005.June resume, other than customized > versions I posted the other day, is the one I'm in the middle of > editing right now. There's no backup for it. Do you want to see it > mid-edit? I'll take a look at some point. > > When looking for someone's resume I'll start with a few simple > > buzzwords like language but I'd really like to see an indication of > > the level you are at in them. > > You're conflating two concepts here: How much general experience and > expertise I have at programming in general, and what I've done in each > of the many particular langauges I've used. In the case of Java, I have > many years of experience in Lisp that can be converted rather easily to > Java ability, but only a little work I've done specifically in Java. So > would refuse to hire me for Java programming, even though I have all > those years of experience in a pre-Java langauge almost directly > applicable to Java, and I find Java almost natural and easy to program > in that way, just because that pre-Java language wasn't exactly Java? Mentioning the right buzzwords just lets the reader know a bit about the tools used. So tell the employer what you did for someone else. If you can work in that you didn't know Java but picked it up to complete a project that shows effort on your part. > > Obviously you also want to list references to items you would like to > > use. > > Your English is escaping me there. Could you please re-phrase it so I > might understand it? You mention many languages, operating systems, and abilities. An employer doesn't care that you know all that -- at least not yet. It would be very helpful if you told the employer what it is you wanted to do for them. If you know so many languages, perhaps the language isn't important and you can focus on what you want to do. I've read that you have opinions on user interfaces, design, and development. If you've read what an employer is looking for, write a good objective statement to let them know how you can help them. Then complete the resume for them with supporting information -- just not too much. You want them to contact you, not make a decision on what they've read thus far. > > Sending any of your large resume references is both overkill and an > > excuse for a prospective employer to never have the need to talk to > > you. > > I'm in a dilemma. If I don't include all the buzzwords the junion staff > member is looking for when screening resumes, nobody who knows the > slightest thing about software will ever get a chance to see my resume. > But the list of buzzwords (posted in alphabetical order earlier this > evening) is very long, and I don't know how to avoid it seeming like > overkill without taking a chance the very word the junior staff member > absolutely needs to see might be missing. How can I guess which > keywords will be needed and which won't, so that I can include only the > former? Just as an employer doesn't care about not-hiring every best candidate, you shouldn't be concerned about getting past every screening step that all of the potential employers have to use to address the influx of far too many resumes. If you must list a bunch of languages/OSes/etc I'd prefer the list to be ordered in your preference for using them or experience level. Somewhere else you mentioned the various spellings, such as FORTRAN vs. Fortran, and what you felt was correct. There is no such thing. Each employer has their preference and which you choose may make a difference. As I stated earlier, I think that you would find much better employement opportunities by determining what you want to do and address specific employers one-by-one. That doesn't mean that you won't also approach totally different employers needs with someone else. Keeping your resume focused also helps keep your image focused. When you present too much information it is then up to the screener to figure out why they should keep looking at your resume and contact you. They probably aren't looking for a generalist yet, so don't try to be one. Just try to address the needs you think they have. Cold calling or appying to jobs that don't exist can work in your favor too. Say that you want a part-time job in Java/web and are willing to do as much of the project as the employer will let you. Sending that to prospective clients that don't likely have development departments can open up opportunities just for you. This can even be done local to you and when personal contact is required, you ask them to come to you. Tailor your career to what you want to do and offer them. David .