Subj : Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract? To : comp.programming,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.lisp From : Chris Sonnack Date : Thu Jul 28 2005 02:16 pm Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes: > ....what part of that would an employer find offensive? Speaking as someone who's spent part of his time interviewing prospective new hires recently.... >> Employers want to see eagerness to do the work, > > Before I respond to that remark, I need clarification: That's offensive. Just answer the question. If the answer depends, then provide two conditional answers. Or learn to ask for clarification more politely. You imply the question was poorly asked. It wasn't--you weren't able to parse it, so assume the burden of seeking clarification *politely*. > Are you saying employers want to see people eager to do unpaid work > or paid work? Learn to use your head. What do you *think* employers want? What makes sense? If you can't figure out something that trivial, you're not someone I'd want on *my* team. >> combined with an awareness of how what you do will make them more >> money, > > I'm sorry but I'm not privy to the internal financial affirs of various > companies. That's an offensive answer. Again, use your head. If you don't have a clue how you can be valuable to me, then you probably aren't. > It's the job of the hiring manager to observe what software I can > produce and then decide whether such software.... I don't care just about "what software [you] can produce", I care about your skills in several areas. Many of those areas go beyond your ability to hack. Your ability to think for yourself and to work with others is of great value. We can teach you a technique or a language, if necessary, but we probably can't teach you to think or work well with others. >> or will let them accomplish their goals. > > Tell me what their goals are,... Why are you interviewing with us if you don't have a clue what we do? >> You are implicitly asking them for money, even if you are not holding >> out your hand the moment you walk in the door. > > There's a subtle but important difference between what you say and what > I do. Consider the difference between the high-pressure car salesman > who drags you to a "special" car and virtually insists you buy it, > [snip] There's a big difference between "implictly" and "high pressure". By applying for a job, you are saying, "I'm worth the pay." Or did you expect to volunteer your services? > I'm not directly asking them for money, like **expecting** that they > would be the next company to hire me,... Do you really not perceive the difference between "expecting" someone to hire you and the fact that, by applying for a job, you ARE asking to be paid? > So do you understand why it pisses me off when you express it in a way > that makes it seem like I'm demanding to be hired instead of merely > offering my services contingent on suitable pay? No, because I doubt anyone else perceived it that way. That you did is (1) rather typical of the behavior I've seen from you here, and (2) exactly why you're one of the last people I'd ever consider hiring. > As I said several times, RSA Data Security was the only company where I > really expected to be hired, because I had already on my own time > developed software exactly like their main line of business, and I was > quite unpleasantly surprised when they didn't hire me. So,.... If I made widgets and you showed me a widget you made, you'd just expect me to hire you? And you'd be pissed if I didn't? What if I had no openings or no budget? What if I didn't care for how you presented yourself? >> Part of your task is to convince them that you are someone they want >> to give money to, in return for what you offer them. > > I don't understand the difference between what you're asking me to do > to potential employers and what the high-pressure car salesman, or the > door-to-door salesman, does to the poor customer. I'm just not the kind > of person to treat people with such disrespect. There is considerable middle ground between treating people with disrespect and selling yourself to a prospective employer. > If you mean something else, you're not communicating it well. THAT's pretty offensive. A much nicer way to put it is to say that you don't understand. You have a tendancy to blame others for things that you should change in yourself. Until you recognize this, odds are strongly against your finding employment. > ...the only way any potential employer could be really sure I can do > the job would be if they gave me an "audition", some small exercise > where I could prove my muster. What do you think a job interview is? Exactly that. Only you are being tested on your ability to pass muster in areas besides just hacking. > I've offered to do auditions but no company has taken me up on > my offer so-far. I've read you write here something to the effect that, if you audition and "pass" then the employer agrees to hire you. That's absurd. Once again, hiring is based on many factors besides hacking ability. > (If any potential employer is reading this and wants > to audition me, connect to my login page: > http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi > log in as guest1 with password free, and send me a short message > introducing yourself. Or send me e-mail to my Yahoo! Mail address, > where your e-mail will be mixed in with tens of thousands of spam, then > connect to my login page to let me know you sent me the e-mail so I'll > be able to sift through ths spam haystack looking for your e-mail > needle by searching specifically for your particular e-mail address.) Do you really think any employer will bother to jump through your hoops? If you're this demanding *before* I hire you, I shudder think how you might behave on the job. > How would anyone know to call you? My contact info has been posted on > the net many many times in my search for employment and nobody has > called me for many years. They obviously don't bother to read the > online resumes,... Or they do and found yours lacking. Based on your apparent attitude, as expressed here, I think you'd be a nightmare to employ. -- |_ CJSonnack _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| .