Subj : Re: How much should I charge for fixed-price software contract? To : comp.programming,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.lisp From : rem642b Date : Wed Jul 27 2005 07:25 pm > From: Scott Ellsworth > Your attitude, from the outside, _appears_ to be one that will offend > many potential employeers. I have 22 years experience in writing computer software, including assembly or machine language for several different CPU types, including several mid-level and high-level programming languages, including utilities and applications in many different fields. I'm currently available for work and seeking employment or contract work. In your personal opinion, what part of that would an employer find offensive? > Employers want to see eagerness to do the work, Before I respond to that remark, I need clarification: Are you referring to paid or unpaid work? Are you saying employers want to see people eager to do unpaid work or paid work? > combined with an awareness of how what you do will make them more > money, I'm sorry but I'm not privy to the internal financial affirs of various companies. It's the job of the hiring manager to observe what software I can produce and then decide whether such software would or would not result in profit for the company. > or will let them accomplish their goals. Tell me what their goals are, and I might be able to say whether my softare wuold contribute toward accomplishing those goals. But I can't guess what the goals of some company might be, at least not in any way relevant to deciding whether my software would help that goal. Is the company interested in generalizing floating point arithmetic toward guaranteed accuracy via interval arithmetic? Yes I can do that. Is the company interested in automating the process of training new employees how to use their equipment? I can help there too. I can help toward many such different kinds of company goals, but until somebody suggests such a goal to me, or responds to the many ideas I've posted already on newsgroups about things I'd like to work on, there's no way to know if there's a match or not. > You are implicitly asking them for money, even if you are not holding > out your hand the moment you walk in the door. There's a subtle but important difference between what you say and what I do. Consider the difference between the high-pressure car salesman who drags you to a "special" car and virtually insists you buy it, compared to a customer service representative at Macy's who is obviously there available to help you but who waits for you to ask a question about something or upon noticing you fretting around like you're frustrated trying to find something might ask if you would like some help finding something. When I am contacting some company about employment, I'm merely saying that I'm available, presenting a summary of what I can do, and leaving it to them to take an interest and express that interest to me and ask for more info. I don't harass the employer like a car salesman trying to insist they should pay for what I offer. I'm not directly asking them for money, like **expecting** that they would be the next company to hire me, and getting angry if they don't say yes. I'm simply stating that I'm available if they happen to want to spend money to hire me. It's a hypothetical, I'm available if you want to pay for my services, rather than GIVE ME GIVE ME GIVE ME. So do you understand why it pisses me off when you express it in a way that makes it seem like I'm demanding to be hired instead of merely offering my services contingent on suitable pay? As I said several times, RSA Data Security was the only company where I really expected to be hired, because I had already on my own time developed software exactly like their main line of business, and I was quite unpleasantly surprised when they didn't hire me. With every other company, I think of it as a chance, maybe they'll hire me and maybe they won't, and I have no expectation either way. > Part of your task is to convince them that you are someone they want > to give money to, in return for what you offer them. I don't understand the difference between what you're asking me to do to potential employers and what the high-pressure car salesman, or the door-to-door salesman, does to the poor customer. I'm just not the kind of person to treat people with such disrespect. If you mean something else, you're not communicating it well. From a scientific or aware-consumer viewpoint, that is the policy that actions speak louder than words, that proof is in the pudding, that evidence weighs a lot more than what you say, the only way any potential employer could be really sure I can do the job would be if they gave me an "audition", some small exercise where I could prove my muster. I've offered to do auditions but no company has taken me up on my offer so-far. (If any potential employer is reading this and wants to audition me, connect to my login page: http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi log in as guest1 with password free, and send me a short message introducing yourself. Or send me e-mail to my Yahoo! Mail address, where your e-mail will be mixed in with tens of thousands of spam, then connect to my login page to let me know you sent me the e-mail so I'll be able to sift through ths spam haystack looking for your e-mail needle by searching specifically for your particular e-mail address.) > If someone calls How would anyone know to call you? My contact info has been posted on the net many many times in my search for employment and nobody has called me for many years. They obviously don't bother to read the online resumes, or they would have found me and called me already, so why would they call you? > I would not go below $15 an hour, and something in the $30-$50 sounds > a lot closer to what I would expect for a reasonably experienced and > competent software guy. Well that's about the range I would expect, but given that I have never gotten any such offer, it seems silly to turn down any lesser offer if it appeared. I'd much rather earn $15/hr than remain unemployed due to holding out for $30 and refusing to take any less. The highest offer I ever actually got was $25/hr 1099, and I took it. > If you do not know what your skills are worth, find an open source or > a volunteer non profit, and do some work for them. I've already spent several years doing that sort of thing, and it never turned into any chance of money in that area, and I'm pretty much burned out giving my free labor and getting neither money nor any social benefit in return, just take my labor and throw shit back at me. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Sorry if you don't like my current attitude, but I tried your idea for quite a number of years and it didn't result in any money, ever, and I'm not willing to continue making the same mistake just because you beg me to and plead that it won't be so bad this time. So anyway, you say I should demand $30-50 per hour, and the other guy says I should demand at least $80-100 per hour and not take anything less, because anything less than $80/hr shows I'm completely worthless. (Yes, I'm paying attention to the various advice I get in this thread.) .