Subj : Re: Are programmers like this in the real world? To : comp.programming From : David Date : Sat Jul 23 2005 10:31 pm Hi Mike/Nathan, On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:24:14 UTC, "Mike Deeth" wrote: > I've been coding for over a decade in all sorts of languages, as a > hobby. My career is mathematics. As such I was obligated to take an > intro programming class. "Well" I said to myself, "let's get this over > with, it's the last 'nonsense' course needed for the degree so from > here on out it'll be all upper division and graduate math classes. > Anyway, I'll probably learn some new stuff!" > > Boy was that last part ever off. > > If I ran a company, I wouldn't let any of these people within 10 > feet of a computer. I wouldn't trust them to write "hello world". And > that includes the instructor. > We get an assignment. Sieve of eratosthenes-- no problem at all. > Have it working in 5 minutes, just like I'm sure anyone on this NG > could as well. Then I find out that to pretty much everyone else in > the class, it was the assignment from hell, hours of hair pulling, most > didn't finish at all. What the hell? > > Exasperated, > Nathan I've been solving problems people have, using computers/programming as some of my tools since high school many, many years ago. While I was initially self taught, I've had a nice formal BS and MS training, mostly in Computer Science, Computer Engineering, and Psychology. Most people who try to program have no idea what they are doing. Sadly, there is often no one qualified to keep them from touching, let alone making something, with a computer. It is the buyer's or empoyer's fault for letting some of these people continue on in substandard performance. That picture of computer development isn't always as bleak. There are many shining students, teachers, and mentors out there. While employers may occasionally "hire the wrong person" for a position, they have the option of dispatching the employee if need be. A good developer usally has many skills, some of which include common sense, attention to detail, and knowing what-they-know- about-development. A good developer can usually tell you what is feasible, is a likely solution, and whether or not the job should be done. I'm currently growing a team beyond myself and enjoying the problem of interviewing prospective workers. About 1/4 of those that responded were worth calling, based on their resumes. A few friends and "those I talk with on usenet" asked about employment and got a somewhat rude awakening. They asked about the job and were told "they weren't qualified" by me. A couple at least asked why, and I hope they understood from our ensuing conversation, that they were always interviewing for the job before there was an opening. It is very difficult to determine a good candidate based on a couple hours of talking with them. It is much easier when you've known them for years and know what to expect. I don't want someone who will blindly do some project as it has been described, I want someone who will at least think about it and comment on why the project is as it is and offer suggestions as they see fit. Those developers that can think and learn are the most valuable. Sadly, many companies let them go or promote them to positions not suited to their abilities. Yes, there are products out there that are less than perfect. All of them are. However, there is a wide degree of competancy there. I've seen companies that develop consistantly great products with expected results, regardless of the quality of people in their shop. I've seen other companies that everything hinged on a few competant people and the rest merely collected paychecks. I can't say that "computer developers" are the only group to which this problem occurs. All organizations have to deal with it. I'd just like to see a few more companies that recognize the great people and make better use of them, and replace those that would be better suited in another position. David .