Subj : Re: [twgsdotorg] To : All From : <> Date : Tue Jan 14 2003 12:11 pm them damn honkeyz are the big crime makers hehe ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Mad Hatter" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:06 PM Subject: [twgsdotorg] Re: [twgsdotorg] > > > > Note the words "Fair and Equitable." The problem in Canada and the United States is that the justice systems are not fair and equitable. > > An evidence of that is the disproportionate number of black, hispanic, and native males who are jailed in both countries. > > The Mad Hatter > > > >From a message by Cherokee about Re: [twgsdotorg]: > > Execution certainly does accomplish something. It removes the > possibility of that person ever killing, or raping, or kidnapping > anyone ever again. Life in prison does NOT accomplish this. > > You believe that a US Soldier killing an Iraqi soldier is OK because > this is some sort of preemptive defensive attack and somehow defends > our country, but killing a convicted murderer/rapist/kidnapper is not > OK. You are full of contradictions. > > Last I checked, you have no authority to decide whether I can be a > Christian and still support the death penalty. > > Baptist & Reflector-June 21, 2000 > Resolution No. 5 On Capital Punishment > > WHEREAS, The Bible teaches that every human life has sacred value > (Genesis 1:27) and forbids the taking of innocent human life (Exodus > 20:13); and > > WHEREAS, God has vested in the civil magistrate the responsibility of > protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty (Romans 13:1-3); and > > WHEREAS, We recognize that fallen human nature has made impossible a > perfect judicial system; and > > WHEREAS, God authorized capital punishment for murder after the Noahic > Flood, validating its legitimacy in human society (Genesis 9:6); and > > WHEREAS, God forbids personal revenge (Romans 12:19) and has > established capital punishment as a just and appropriate means by which > the civil magistrate may punish those guilty of capital crimes (Romans > 13:4); and > > WHEREAS, God requires proof of guilt before any punishment is > administered (Deuteronomy 19:15-19); and > > WHEREAS, God's instructions require a civil magistrate to judge all > people equally under the law, regardless of class or status (Leviticus > 19:15; Deuteronomy 1:17); and > > WHEREAS, All people, including those guilty of capital crimes, are > created in the image of God and should be treated with dignity (Genesis > 1:27). > > Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist > Convention, meeting in Orlando, Florida, June 13-14, 2000, support the > fair and equitable use of capital punishment by civil magistrates as a > legitimate form of punishment for those guilty of murder or treasonous > acts that result in death; and > > Be it further RESOLVED, That we urge that capital punishment be > administered only when the pursuit of truth and justice result in clear > and overwhelming evidence of guilt; and > > Be it further RESOLVED, That because of our deep reverence for human > life, our profound respect for the rights of individuals, and our > respect for the law, we call for vigilance, justice, and equity in the > criminal justice system; and > > Be it further RESOLVED, That we urge that capital punishment be applied > as justly and as fairly as possible without undue delay, without > reference to the race, class, or status of the guilty; and > > Be it further RESOLVED, That we call on civil magistrates to use humane > means in administering capital punishment; and > > Be it finally RESOLVED, That we commit ourselves to love, to pray for, > and to minister the Gospel to victims and perpetrators of crimes, > realizing that only in Christ is there forgiveness of sin, > reconciliation, emotional and spiritual healing, and the gift of > eternal life. > > > > > --- col sanders wrote: > > > > The state should not be in the business of premeditated killing. (I > > would use the term murder, but murder is defined as "unlawful" > > killing). > > Execution accomplishes nothing. Killing is only forgivable (not OK, > > > > but forgivable) when its done in self defense. There is no way you > > can > > argue execution is self defense. You can try the deterrent argument, > > > > but that obviously doesn't work. Murders are not rational people > > that > > can be deterred. Self defense killing is in the heat of the moment > > when > > your life is in peril (or in the case of a war where you are > > DEFENDING, > > defence of course can involve preemptive strikes and such, thats > > another > > huge topic though). The general point being that, it is not morally > > acceptable for the state to engage in behavior that it imprisons and > > executes people for, meaning premeditated killing. > > > > Even if you disagree with that basic moral premise, which you cannot > > do > > if you are a Christian (see the commandments and rest of the bible), > > then Hatter's arguement about it not being applied properly and such > > can > > be used. The simple fact that innocent people are/have been executed > > > > and/or placed on death row should be enough to stop all executions. > > Executions are not needed to accomplish anything. Life in prison > > accomplishes it for us. > > > > Col Sanders > > > > Cherokee wrote: > > > > >Assuming that everything you say is correct, and for the sake of > > >argument I will grant that, then the problem is still not the death > > >penalty. The problem is a justice system that does not provide > > >adequate defense for poor defendants, and corrupt police willing to > > >torture suspects to obtain false confessions. I would be all for any > > >type of reform that increased the accuracy of our justice system. > > > > > >Death penalty opponents always use the scenario of the "innocent > > death > > >row inmate" to try to argue against the penalty. I'm sur this > > happens > > >occasionally, but I believe it is far less frequent than death > > penalty > > >opponents claim. > > > > > >But what about the truly guilty? Do you think those who are truly > > >guilty of capital crimes should be put to death? If you answer > > "no", > > >then you should explain why the death penalty in general is wrong, > > >rather than relying on the old "an innocent person could die" > > argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- The Mad Hatter wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > >>Check CNN, MSNBC, Nytimes.com, etc., all of the major news sites > > >>covered it. > > >> > > >>And yes, these people were innocent. Through DNA testing (which was > > >>not available when many of them were convicted), research, etc. the > > >>convictions were overturned, and in several cases the real > > >>perpetrator was convicted. > > >> > > >>8 of the convictions were obtained by confessions that were > > extracted > > >>under torture. The officer who obtained those convictions has been > > >>removed from the police department, however he has not as yet been > > >>jailed (I was unable to even find reference to him being charged). > > >> > > >>The Criminal Justice systems of both Canada and the United States > > >>have errored with great regularity. A conviction in a court of > > either > > >>country does not mean that you are guilty, it often means that you > > >>could not afford a good lawyer. Harsh but true. > > >> > > >>What is really scarey about this is that you stand a better chance > > of > > >>getting justice in Canada or the United States (even with all the > > >>faults of both systems) than you do almost anywhere else. > > >> > > >>The Mad Hatter > > >> > > >>>From a message by Cherokee about Re: [twgsdotorg]: > > >> > > >> > > >>>I would like to know the source of your statistics, in particular > > >>> > > >>> > > >>the > > >>23 Illinois men who were "innocent". > > >> > > >>These cases are almost NEVER cases of truly innocent men being > > >>convicted, sentenced to death, and then exonerated. Rather, they > > are > > >>usually cases in which some legal technicality allowed the men to > > go > > >>free. In every such case, the body of evidence was enough to > > convince > > >>a > > >>jury of reasonable people beyond a reasonable doubt, that the > > >>defendant > > >>was guilty. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>--- The Mad Hatter wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>>There are three good reasons that the Death Penalty is a dead > > issue > > >>>in Canada. The Killer M's, David Millgard, Donald Marshall, and > > Guy > > >>>Paul Morin. > > >>> > > >>>All three of these gentlemen were convicted of murder, all > > >>>exonerated. > > >>> > > >>>For those who say it couldn't happen in the USA, I suggest you > > look > > >>>at Illinois where in the last 10 years 23 inmates who were on > > death > > >>>row were later found innocent. > > >>> > > >>>The point of this being (for both Sanders and Cherokee who seem > > >>>unable to find it) is that government is best kept starved and > > >>>inoffensive, so that it cannot interfere with the lives of the > > >>>citizens. All governments should be kept this way - consider > > Saddam > > >>>Hussein if his government was defanged. He'd end up looking like > > >>> > > >>> > > >>the > > >> > > >> > > >>>Stay-Pufft Marshmellow Man. > > >>> > > >>>Government is not he solution to the problem - it is the problem. > > >>> > > >>>The only good politician is a dead one (they don't raise taxes). > > >>> > > >>>The best government is the least government, and the least > > >>> > > >>> > > >>government > > >> > > >> > > >>>is no government at all. > > >>> > > >>>Taxation is theft. > > >>> > > >>>Why is the U.S. Government so hard on the Mafia? They don't like > > >>>competition. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>The Mad Hatter - Radical to the Bone > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>from a message by col sanders about Re: OT Military: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>No, I just don't find very many offenses worthy of execution. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>Cherokee wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>So violating the law is ok as long as it results in something > > >>>>productive? > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- FEddy 1.4.03/modPHX * Origin: http://www.twgs.org -- THE Trade Wars web forum! (1:229/522.0) .