Subj : Re: Facts or Fiction To : Dennis Haddox From : Scott Adams Date : Wed Jul 09 2003 04:58 am -=> Quoting Dennis Haddox to Scott Adams <=- DH> Part III Today we learn Dennis is Marks father and wants him to join the emporer...err..sorry too much reading of SW books... SA> Please show us here so the evidence can be broken down. SA> Not just words please. Please post logs, statements by SA> users/players, screen captures and such. I hope you SA> did SA> do your homework. But being so long i'm sure that SA> stuff is thrown out by now. Oh well. DH> DH> Yes, but you didn't believe it then so it wouldn't make much DH> difference now would it? Because we didn't see evidence. We only saw words. SA> in your league. Also stupidity by them admiting to SA> them SA> cheating. That has occured. DH> DH> In the 777 game, after I was onto them and deleted their accounts DH> here on my board. They went to other boards, mainly xbit and DH> one of them started running his mouth, probably because they DH> got kicked off here and was mad they couldn't cheat here. DH> He admitted outright to having multiple accounts. He was also DH> one of those that gave us info on others. He said "What is DH> wrong with having dupe accounts, I know people that have DH> as many as 6 dupe accounts all over this league. DH> When a couple of my players and I started to look and see DH> where these accounts were with a little investigative work and DH> some deductive reasoning, that is when we started to point DH> them out. No comment on league 777 since I'e not been there. SA> Now with these ideas in the open lets get back to SA> cheating SA> in our league. In my experience we have had cheaters SA> we have caught and dealt with. No board besides yours SA> has SA> ever been thrown out (though I did not per se do it SA> mark SA> did). In my league 033 and now the merged 933 league SA> we have mainly found the stupid multiple accounts. DH> DH> Scott, I can't believe you are trying to piss in my face and tell DH> me it's raining. I have always thought you as on of the more DH> honest ones. Let me refresh your memory a bit here. DH> Ok we were in the dispute on how to handle these boards that DH> were going up and down when they lost their edge, as I have DH> already discussed. I refused to let this issue drop. You said DH> that since Hoover ran the league, it was out of your hands and DH> it was his call. Then out of the fucking blue, Hoover sends me DH> a message saying I have a dupe player from my board playing DH> on another board. This is what really pissed me off. First of all, DH> do you see how the same thing has happened in all 3 of these DH> leagues? Try to get something done about the blatant cheating DH> and the LC turns around and accused YOU of cheating. But I guess it works both ways. Dev had accusations but if I recall no direct proof just like your side of the story. I guess it works both ways sometimes. Now you can see how we feel when things like that occur. DH> Anyway, I knew for a FACT that all the players that were playing DH> here were NOT playing anywhere else. All the players that were DH> playing here were local. They were people I knew. Just to make DH> sure though, I either called them up or drove over to their house DH> and asked each one of them. They all said no, we aren't playing DH> anywhere else. If they were lying, I would have known. They DH> were not lying. Drove to their house? hmm..To me that would indicate some doubt in your mind if you were drastic enough to do that. Something I'd have to set aside in the back of my mind for later. DH> I then decided that I have had enough of this shit, I was pulling DH> out of this league and ridding myself of that moron Hoover. DH> I emailed or netmailed you and told you I was pulling out, to take DH> me out of this network asap. You had replied asking if I wished DH> to remain in the message bases, which I also declined. I told DH> you straight out, no, that I have had enough of Hoover, I want DH> totally out of the network. You said ok, and that was that. DH> Then a couple days later, I hear Hoover is ranting that he kicked DH> us out of the league. He didn't do shit. He is just a lying moron. DH> I had already disconnected everything and removed all reference DH> to this network from my mailer's configuration days before when DH> I had messaged you. Not quite the exact events i recall. I'd have to backtrack the netmails and emails to pull dates/times but I don't desire to since it would not get anywhere. I'll just say not 100% accurate and leave it at that. SA> But the point is persepctive is the key to everything. SA> As a sysop in a league you don't see every detail. DH> DH> Yes...I do. So you can see ever player's real name? You can see the League info that others can? If so then you found a major but in BRE. There are thigns only a LC sees. Right there that shows you didn't have the same perspective. You only see one side in front of the game not behind the scenes. Totally different POV. SA> Every problem. Every fact. You only see your side SA> and your board losing battle after battle in a SA> desperate SA> fight for survival. You example what info you do have SA> like scores and think "they must be cheating". That's SA> not the case that's just your human mind trying to SA> resolve SA> a situation it can't deal with. DH> DH> No, that isn't the case at all. We don't mind getting our asses DH> kicked. But when we do, we analyze what happened. Did we not get DH> enough participation from every player? When did the packets DH> process inbound and when were the outbound sent? What relation DH> to packet processing did we play? How many times and how often DH> did each player log on and play a few turns? Did we miscalculate DH> the size difference or did we just get too emotionally involved and DH> knew we would get beat but wanted to cause as much pain as we DH> could on our way down? Was somebody out of town that day DH> and miss playing altogether, or even 2 or 3 days? Was our DH> intelligence data incorrect? Who were the opponents allies? What DH> were the opponents growth rate during the battle? Growth rate DH> of allies during the battle? We look at everything. DH> When you analyze like that, you notice easily when something is DH> not right, so you keep an eye on that. Yes for that board in question. Not for the entire league. I know the players on my board as you do yours. But I have no clue what occurs on yours or say Marks other than maybe a playing time based on some TT and maybe a actual msg in the game itself. SA> But as the saying goes. Those who protest or deny too SA> much SA> tend to have something to hide (metaphorically or for SA> real). DH> DH> Something to hide? I have nothing to hide. All I have is this DH> rage because these cheaters get away with it even when they DH> are caught and then the LC accuses you of cheating when DH> you have never cheated in a league in your life. I don't know. That's how we feel on the LC every time a sore loser or board that doesn't know how to play or such accuses of cheating. Its in every league I've been in and every league that will continue to exist. Theres always one in just about every game that complains though 95% of them are just baseless. SA> Now you may call me names if you want I won't. I only SA> am trying to reason with you and hope you think about DH> DH> I won't call you any names even though you did lie once in this DH> post, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt this time and DH> just chalk it up as you not remembering the facts clearly. Where? Point it out please. SA> Good day and good reading. I hope you consider the SA> above in friendship (what little you may think we SA> have left) and not a attack. You started the attacks SA> I'm replying to them. DH> DH> I don't feel I am attacking. It is more of a vent to release the DH> rage because people spreading lies about me and false DH> accusations about us cheating. I want to make sure that DH> anybody that reads these messages will know what kind DH> of slimy LC's run them that will even band together to try DH> and make their lies believable. I have nothing to hide so DH> I have nothing to lose when I uncover what kind of DH> cheating goes on in some of these leagues and how the DH> LC responds when you start pointing it out. And we've shown our rage by those who accuse us of baseless and unproven things. That cheating is called that by every tom and dick out there and will continue till the final bbs dies out there eventually. We have rage that it continues and we can't do much until there is clear and distinct proof. In the past there have been such proof and acted on but nothing we've seen in the last few years say otherwise. When dale ran his league 088 around...'96 or so I and Andy thought they were seriously cheating. Then Dale and me setup a demo league just him and me and he gave me all his nice tricks of the trade. Within 2 weeks I showed to myself it was his skill that was doing it and if I could do such things then maybe others could. I ended the accusations since frankly I was proven wrong and had no facts in the first place. So I've been in your shoes. .... "Not everyone back home buys the party line." - Hague --- Fringe BBS * Origin: EWOG II - The Fringe - 904-733-1721 (1:112/91) .