Subj : Re: Back again To : Richard M. Meic From : John Wilson Date : Wed Jul 11 2001 03:15 pm -=> RICHARD M. MEIC wrote to JOHN WILSON <=- -> -> I believe logic is important but not all inclusive in human -> RMM> apprehension -> -> of the universe (as best as he is able) -> -> RMM> Logic does seem to me to be the foundation of the equasion. -> -> Truth is found it beauty: art, poetry, feelings of awe and RMM> understanding: -> religion and other non-logical sources. RMM> Art and peotry are expressions of self... I'm cutting in here. We can't go on untill we come to some sort of agreement as to what you mean by self. You see, I understand self to be mainly an illusion. Consciusness, I maintain has seven different, identifible `centers' (and so on for several paragraphs... ...but the point here is we must agree upon definitions else communication is mere static... awe is the result of RMM> beauty/ugliness percieved by the individual. The want for truth RMM> is perhaps triggered by beauty or awe but the seeking of it is RMM> impared by the emotion. My, but there is a lot here with which to differ! There are so many shard of concepts in your above sentence, that it is impossible to replt to it. Perception of beauty. Innate. Considerations for. Associations with perceived ugliness. The "want" for truth? Want? Truth? As to `impared by the emotion.' (THE emotion?) If you conclude this, *I* conclude that you have been living far to much or too long on the wrong side of the emotional spectrum! RMM> I think you still misunderstand what I mean. Observation is RMM> where the questions begin. Without the questions there is no RMM> desire to seek answers. Without logic in it's purest form, RMM> unclouded by personal feelings, preferences, desires etc, the RMM> answers become misguided and less than meaningful. Yes, I certainly do still misunderstand you.The questions begin at the advent of consciousness. The desire for answers has many motivations, e.g., allayance of fear, quest for food, desire for the protection of progeny... Logic in it's purest form? What on earth is that? Aristotleian? Boolian? Cantorian? Logic is man-made. :-) -> -> -> , "E" is the inconstant of -> -> RMM> Emotion -> -> -> -> I have no idea of what you mean here. -> -> RMM> Emotion is not a constant, it varies in aspect and degree and is -> RMM> unpredictable. Therefore emotion must be removed. -> -> Removed? I do believe that your `therefore' is not logical :-) -> -> Emotion is a constituant element of human nature: one cannot `remove'it -> and remain human. -> Pure reason has been justly criticized (Kant) :-) -> Besides that: You say it is unpredictable. Then wouldn't you say -> it importsnt that it be studied that it might better be understood? RMM> In the past 100 years man has seen more accumulation of knowledge RMM> than the rest of human history. ok. The end of the Enlightenment RMM> marks the separation of emotion and logic. Nonsense. Before you return RMM> with a Kantism informing me of how the lack of emotion has RMM> created the mess we are... What mess? Sorry, but the mess we are in just happens to be the pinnacle of human history: never have so many been blessed with so much...beyond the DREAMS of a couple of hundred years ago. No, what I am *saying* is that disparagment of emotion as a constituant part of the human being, the human condition, is but to limit your humanity. It's as nonsensical as to say "The lungs are our problem; let's try to breath as seldom as possible!" :-) in I must inform you that it is infact RMM> emotion guiding the applications of the knowledge discovered by RMM> logic that has caused the current mess. In fact, eh? :-) It is not the knowledge RMM> that science has discovered that created the nuclear bomb, but RMM> the APPLICATION of that knowledge, the emotion that a weapon of RMM> such power was needed to whipe out two major cities that created RMM> the weapon. ...Savings tens of thousands of American lives. And became the begining of the nuclear power industry, radiation therapy (which saved my life - ther's MY bias :-) RMM> Emotion is indeed important, but not when one wants to know how RMM> things really are. I would, f I were you *immeadiatly* switch your major from Elisabethian Poetry to...any thing you'll pass. :-) RMM> trod `where other minds rarely go'?", I am forced to say that on RMM> some occasions I do feel that I have managed it. A vivid imigination engendered by fiction is, I suppose profitable in some sense, but `where other minds go' I take to mean far more than that...to study the mind of Emerson, Browning, Plutarch, Paul, is to follow more closely that holy grail of yours: Logic. :-) ...without dispensing for a moment the necessity of emotion to play it's part in making the whole comprehensible. RMM> As the power of final judge that you have granted me on this RMM> particular item I state that your memory may not be all you think RMM> it may be. Logically, if you have forgotten some things how would RMM> you know you have forgotten them? Thus, how can you be certain RMM> that your memory is as good as you claim? :o) A hoary old question. Easily. I am quite proud of my memory, and, as an occultist, I agree with the statement about which a book has been written that "with the passage of time and the virtue of memory a thing can become more than itself; hence progress is possible." I am as certain of this as I am that I am sane. (We could argue that, I suppose :-) RMM> You may percieve this as hubris, but in my travails... In your travels or travails? There IS a difference. :-) And yes, hubris is what springs to mind. RMM> ... I thought I was unforgettable :( We all fall prey to that thought :-) Perhaps it RMM> is the "M" between Richard and Meic that has thrown you off? Let RMM> me present the name as it was displayed: I think I left before any of this happened. With my super-sharp memory, I remember not, nor am interested really in such...is there a moderator currently? RMM> ... but how do we get this echo back up and in RMM> action? How long has it been fallow? Word of mouth :-) Weeks, perhaps months, with but sporatic nonsubstantive posts... .... And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from Ego. --- Maximus 3.01 * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, B.C., Canada (1:153/7715) .