Subj : The universe            1
To   : TODD HENSON
From : DAVE OLDRIDGE
Date : Fri Jan 19 2001 08:33 am

TH> > TH> > The trouble is language.  "Before" is a word that implies time and
TH> > TH> > entropy which do not extend beyond the origin any more than the 
earth's
TH> > TH> > geography extends upwards from the north pole.
TH> > TH> >
TH> > TH> > This has nothing to do with theology, only with physics (although 
it
TH> > TH> > may have consequences for bad theology).
TH> >
TH> >
TH> > TH> But there was once a "time" when this continuum did not exist. Or, 
the
TH> >
TH> > Nope...that's my point.  Whatever you want to call it, the "space" on
TH> > the other side of the beginning is not a "time."  There is no entropic
TH> > connection from that space to our time dimension and its concomitant
TH> > entropy.


TH> Note the quotations around the word "time".

Nitpicking (while ignoring the essential meaning involved).  There is 
no temporal connection between our universe and anything on the other 
side of the beginning of time.  It would be like having a land bridge to 
Polaris from the North Pole.

TH> > TH> timeline of this
TH> > TH> continuum doesn't extend to infinity going backwards. The "thing", 
the
TH> >
TH> > It doesn't.
TH> >
TH> > TH> force, the quantum
TH> > TH> fluctuation, or the God that brought this universe into existence, 
that
TH> is
TH> > TH> what I call the Origin.
TH> >
TH> > The original singularity marks the zero-entropy point of our time
TH> > dimension (or at least the minimum entropy that it possesses).


TH> I wonder where the singularity derives it's existence.

So do a lot of people.  It is not possible to see that far back to even 
venture much of an opinion.

TH> > TH> And the Origin's existence is beyond linear time, as I'm sure you 
would
TH> > TH> agree. But that still
TH> > TH> means that while the Origin's existence is infinite, that of our 
universe
TH> > TH> is finite. So by that fact
TH> >
TH> > We cannot know if the the universe exists in an infinite plenum or not.
TH> > All PHYSICAL observations of it must be made IN time.


TH> I don't see how that would limit our ability to get an idea as to whether
TH> the universe has existed
TH> for infinity or not.

It hasn't.  Whether it's part of a larger meta-universe or not, that 
larger meta-universe does not exist IN our time.

TH> > TH> alone, it is fine to speak of a "before the universe", even though 
the
TH> > TH> Origin itself might not be
TH> > TH> limited to linear time. And if we are talking about a *conscious* 
Origin
TH> > TH> who can at least
TH> > TH> *conceive* of the idea of limited time, then the Origin would 
understand
TH> > TH> exactly what I mean
TH> > TH> when I speak of "before the universe". :-)
TH> >
TH> > "before" still implies an entropic succession of events in an
TH> > irreversible fashion. We have no evidence of any other timelike
TH> > dimensions to go on (although there is nothing in principle to prevent
TH> > there being some).

TH> Note the quotations around the word "before". I explained the issue of
TH> context, you're ignoring it.

No, I'm not.  The word "before" ALWAYS has entropic connotations.  It 
is hard to shake them (nearly impossible really) and using it in this 
connection is just inviting equivocations (whether deliberate or 
unconscious).

TH> > TH> >
TH> > TH> > TH> That still doesn't erase the fact that the universe has not 
always
TH> > TH> existed,
TH> > TH> > TH> that it's timeline is not
TH> > TH> > TH> infinite. To speak of a "before" doesn't necessarily project 
the
TH> > linear
TH> > TH> >
TH> > TH> > But it HAS "always" existed for all the time that has ever been.
TH> >
TH> > TH> As far as the temporal component to our space-time continuum is
TH> concerned,
TH> > TH> yes. And, all the
TH> > TH> time that has ever been happens to be a finite amount of time. :-)
TH> >
TH> > Quiet so.  But we can just as easily point out that there is NO time at
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