Subj : The universe            4
To   : TODD HENSON
From : DAVE OLDRIDGE
Date : Thu Jan 11 2001 01:11 pm

TH> > TH> > But the concept of cause has no meaning unless it occurs in the
TH> > TH> > world of appearance, i.e.  in the universe.  Therefore no
TH> > TH> > empirical meaning can be attached to the question "What caused the
TH> > TH> > universe to exist?" There is no logically possible way to answer
TH> > TH> > such a question.
TH> >
TH> >
TH> > TH> Yes, it IS logical, because if the universe was created, then 
something
TH> had
TH> > TH> to create it.
TH> >
TH> > You miss the point.  If the universe IS created, then something
TH> > (someone?) IS creating it.


TH> From whose perspective? Ours, or God's?

That's a theological question.  And presumes that they are necessarily 
different in this respect.

TH> > TH> > Therefore, the universe did not have a cause.  It had a beginning
TH> > TH> > which occurred some 15-20 billion years ago; and that beginning
TH> > TH> > was the Big Bang.
TH> >
TH> >
TH> > TH> And what caused the Big Bang?
TH> >
TH> >
TH> > TH> > But it had no cause.  It began, simpliciter.
TH> >
TH> > TH> Nonsense.
TH> >
TH> > Not nonsense, just difficult for your mind to grasp because the very
TH> > thought processes you are trying to wrap around it are enmeshed in the
TH> > entropy that is characteristic of time.  People characteristically have
TH> > the same problems with most non-Euclidean geometries.


TH> No, your simply not seeing the context that I am using my words in. I don't
TH> necessarily disagree
TH> with what you're saying. :-)

You're headed into theology...I have found that the existence of God 
cannot be rigorously inferred from anything IN time.  This may be a 
feature, not a bug.

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