Subj : The universe            4
To   : TODD HENSON
From : DAVE OLDRIDGE
Date : Thu Jan 11 2001 01:07 pm

TH> > The trouble is language.  "Before" is a word that implies time and
TH> > entropy which do not extend beyond the origin any more than the earth's
TH> > geography extends upwards from the north pole.
TH> >
TH> > This has nothing to do with theology, only with physics (although it
TH> > may have consequences for bad theology).


TH> But there was once a "time" when this continuum did not exist. Or, the

Nope...that's my point.  Whatever you want to call it, the "space" on 
the other side of the beginning is not a "time."  There is no entropic 
connection from that space to our time dimension and its concomitant 
entropy.

TH> timeline of this
TH> continuum doesn't extend to infinity going backwards. The "thing", the

It doesn't.

TH> force, the quantum
TH> fluctuation, or the God that brought this universe into existence, that is
TH> what I call the Origin.

The original singularity marks the zero-entropy point of our time 
dimension (or at least the minimum entropy that it possesses).

TH> And the Origin's existence is beyond linear time, as I'm sure you would
TH> agree. But that still
TH> means that while the Origin's existence is infinite, that of our universe
TH> is finite. So by that fact

We cannot know if the the universe exists in an infinite plenum or not. 
All PHYSICAL observations of it must be made IN time.

TH> alone, it is fine to speak of a "before the universe", even though the
TH> Origin itself might not be
TH> limited to linear time. And if we are talking about a *conscious* Origin
TH> who can at least
TH> *conceive* of the idea of limited time, then the Origin would understand
TH> exactly what I mean
TH> when I speak of "before the universe". :-)

"before" still implies an entropic succession of events in an
irreversible fashion. We have no evidence of any other timelike
dimensions to go on (although there is nothing in principle to prevent
there being some).

TH> >
TH> > TH> That still doesn't erase the fact that the universe has not always
TH> existed,
TH> > TH> that it's timeline is not
TH> > TH> infinite. To speak of a "before" doesn't necessarily project the 
linear
TH> >
TH> > But it HAS "always" existed for all the time that has ever been.

TH> As far as the temporal component to our space-time continuum is concerned,
TH> yes. And, all the
TH> time that has ever been happens to be a finite amount of time. :-)

Quiet so.  But we can just as easily point out that there is NO time at 
which the universe does not exist in some form.

TH> > TH> limitations of our
TH> > TH> space-time onto the Origin. It appears as if you are assuming it 
does.
TH> Not
TH> > TH> really.
TH> >
TH> > Of course it does.  The word itself implies a state with lower entropy.


TH> That is one possible context of the word, yes.

It's built into our understanding of it.

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