Subj : The universe            4
To   : DAVE OLDRIDGE
From : TODD HENSON
Date : Tue Jan 09 2001 06:54 pm

> TH> > That there is a beginning does not imply a "before the beginning."
> TH> > Both a beginng and a before are in time.  The universe's beginning is
> only
> TH> > a beginning from inside it.  From outside, it is just another point in
> TH> > the geometry...somewhat special like the north pole because of its 
unique
> TH> > position, but not remarkable for any other reason....
> 
> 
> TH> I don't altogether disagree. I actually like the way you've described the
> TH> "Origin" (that which is the
> TH> reason for the universe's existence). I would agree that the Origin is
> TH> something (or someone)
> TH> that is not bound by linear time as we are.
> 
> TH> But that doesn't make it improper to speak of "before" the universe.
> 
> The trouble is language.  "Before" is a word that implies time and 
> entropy which do not extend beyond the origin any more than the earth's 
> geography extends upwards from the north pole.
> 
> This has nothing to do with theology, only with physics (although it 
> may have consequences for bad theology).


But there was once a "time" when this continuum did not exist. Or, the
timeline of this 
continuum doesn't extend to infinity going backwards. The "thing", the
force, the quantum 
fluctuation, or the God that brought this universe into existence, that is
what I call the Origin. 
And the Origin's existence is beyond linear time, as I'm sure you would
agree. But that still 
means that while the Origin's existence is infinite, that of our universe
is finite. So by that fact 
alone, it is fine to speak of a "before the universe", even though the
Origin itself might not be 
limited to linear time. And if we are talking about a *conscious* Origin
who can at least 
*conceive* of the idea of limited time, then the Origin would understand
exactly what I mean 
when I speak of "before the universe". :-) 


> 
> TH> That still doesn't erase the fact that the universe has not always 
existed,
> TH> that it's timeline is not
> TH> infinite. To speak of a "before" doesn't necessarily project the linear
> 
> But it HAS "always" existed for all the time that has ever been.


As far as the temporal component to our space-time continuum is concerned,
yes. And, all the 
time that has ever been happens to be a finite amount of time. :-)


> TH> limitations of our
> TH> space-time onto the Origin. It appears as if you are assuming it does. 
Not
> TH> really.
> 
> Of course it does.  The word itself implies a state with lower entropy. 


That is one possible context of the word, yes.


> The entropy at the beginning, at a close order approximation gives the 
> entire mass of the universe as free energy.
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