Subj : The universe            4
To   : TODD HENSON
From : DAVE OLDRIDGE
Date : Thu Dec 21 2000 12:08 pm

TH> > TH> > TH> Nobody seems to care to comment (not that they need to) on my 
Zen
TH> > stories
TH> > TH> I
TH> > TH> > TH> posted, perhaps
TH> > TH> > TH> the bicker-mongers are still only interested in bickering (as 
has
TH> > been
TH> > TH> > TH> evidenced recently). So, I
TH> > TH> > TH> thought I'd dig up an older topic that might be looked at 
afresh.
TH> > TH> >
TH> > TH> > TH> I'm not quite sure why people find it so meaningless to speak 
of
TH> > "before"
TH> > TH> > TH> the big bang. By the
TH> > TH> >
TH> > TH> > It's mathematically in the same category as "north" of the north 
pole.
TH> > TH> > As Hawking points out, you can normalize the whole picture by 
treating
TH> > TH> > time (as we measure it) as an imaginary quantity (in the 
mathematical
TH> > TH> > sense).  The singularity at t=0 then simply becomes a point on a
TH> > TH> > hypersurface, special largely because of the coordinate system used
TH> (but
TH> > also
TH> >
TH> > TH> > because the universe expands from it).
TH> >
TH> >
TH> > TH> The issue is not as simple as mathematics. That doesn't really answer
TH> much.
TH> >
TH> > It does, however, define the SHAPE of the universe.  And in either case
TH> > there is no solution where t < 0 is true.


TH> That isn't even responsive to the context of the original premise. The
TH> current scope of your vision
TH> simply isn't sufficient to take into account the implications of saying the
TH> universe had a
TH> beginning. Offering short quips like "t < 0" doesn't answer the questions.

That there is a beginning does not imply a "before the beginning."  
Both a beginng and a before are in time.  The universe's beginning is only 
a beginning from inside it.  From outside, it is just another point in 
the geometry...somewhat special like the north pole because of its unique 
position, but not remarkable for any other reason....

[snip]

TH> > TH> > This is a failure to understand the math.  There is no need for 
there
TH> > TH> > to be a t=-1 any more than there is a need for a REAL solution to
TH> X^2+1=0
TH> >
TH> >
TH> > TH> This is a failure to understand the proper scope of the issue.
TH> >
TH> > No, it is not.  You are trying to bend your mind around the possibility


TH> Yes, it is.

How so?

TH> > that there is a time (t=0) before which there are no other times.  This
TH> > is difficult for the human mind which never really has any experience
TH> > of timelessness because once IN time all things are subject to the
TH> > entropy increase by which we measure time.


TH> Yes, I understand that. But the fact remains that if the universe did not
TH> always exist, if it came
TH> into being by something else, then it is perfectly valid to speak of that
TH> which came before it.

Not at all.  Once more you are treating time as if it were an infinite, 
Euclidean dimension.  There is no reason to believe it is and plenty of 
evidence that it is not.  Euclidean space is very tempting, in that it 
coincides well with our basic perceptions.  But it is an artificial 
construct and its rules can only be applied to REAL space-time with a lot of 
cautious corrections for the differences.

TH> > TH> > TH> Even science rejects that. For one, many a scientist theorize 
that
TH> > there
TH> > TH> > TH> are MANY different
TH> > TH> > TH> expanses of space-time that were created in many big bangs. 
These
TH> > TH> universes
TH> > TH> > TH> are seemingly
TH> > TH> > TH> separate from ours. Even though these different universes (if 
they
TH> > even
TH> > TH> > TH> exist) might not explain
TH> > TH> > TH> the origin of our own, the concept of other temporal frames of
TH> > reference
TH> > TH> > TH> outside THIS space-time
TH> > TH> > TH> continuum is a valid one.
TH> > TH> >
TH> > TH> > TH> So if our universe had a beginning, then something had to come
TH> before
TH> > it
ú  [ Continued In Next Message... ]
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v3.0pr3
 * Origin: FONiX Info Systems * Berkshire UK * +44 1344 641625 (2:252/171)

.