Subj : The universe            4
To   : TODD HENSON
From : DAVE OLDRIDGE
Date : Sun Dec 17 2000 06:19 am

TH> > TH> Nobody seems to care to comment (not that they need to) on my Zen 
stories
TH> I
TH> > TH> posted, perhaps
TH> > TH> the bicker-mongers are still only interested in bickering (as has 
been
TH> > TH> evidenced recently). So, I
TH> > TH> thought I'd dig up an older topic that might be looked at afresh.
TH> >
TH> > TH> I'm not quite sure why people find it so meaningless to speak of 
"before"
TH> > TH> the big bang. By the
TH> >
TH> > It's mathematically in the same category as "north" of the north pole.
TH> > As Hawking points out, you can normalize the whole picture by treating
TH> > time (as we measure it) as an imaginary quantity (in the mathematical
TH> > sense).  The singularity at t=0 then simply becomes a point on a
TH> > hypersurface, special largely because of the coordinate system used (but 
also

TH> > because the universe expands from it).


TH> The issue is not as simple as mathematics. That doesn't really answer much.

It does, however, define the SHAPE of the universe.  And in either case 
there is no solution where t < 0 is true.

TH> > TH> very fact that they say the universe had a *beginning*, it introduces 
the
TH> > TH> question of "before" the
TH> > TH> big bang, because there was SOMETHING before it which gave it 
existencem,
TH> > TH> whether it be a
TH> > TH> quantum fluctuation, God, moldy cheese, or whatever. They seem to 
assume
TH> > TH> that the only
TH> > TH> temporal reality in existence is the one that was created along with 
our
TH> > TH> space.
TH> >
TH> > This is a failure to understand the math.  There is no need for there
TH> > to be a t=-1 any more than there is a need for a REAL solution to X^2+1=0


TH> This is a failure to understand the proper scope of the issue.

No, it is not.  You are trying to bend your mind around the possibility 
that there is a time (t=0) before which there are no other times.  This 
is difficult for the human mind which never really has any experience 
of timelessness because once IN time all things are subject to the 
entropy increase by which we measure time.

TH> > TH> Even science rejects that. For one, many a scientist theorize that 
there
TH> > TH> are MANY different
TH> > TH> expanses of space-time that were created in many big bangs. These
TH> universes
TH> > TH> are seemingly
TH> > TH> separate from ours. Even though these different universes (if they 
even
TH> > TH> exist) might not explain
TH> > TH> the origin of our own, the concept of other temporal frames of 
reference
TH> > TH> outside THIS space-time
TH> > TH> continuum is a valid one.
TH> >
TH> > TH> So if our universe had a beginning, then something had to come before 
it
TH> to
TH> > TH> initiate the action
TH> > TH> which made the universe. Now perhaps that primordial temporal context
TH> might
TH> >
TH> > Perhaps, but not necessarily.  Something may will produce it from
TH> > altogether outside and be effecting it now as well as at the beginning 
(and I

TH> > did not misspell the verb back there).

TH> Yes, necessarily. By definition. A thing cannot create itself, therefore
TH> something had to exist in
TH> order to cause the universe's creation. I don't understand how your outside
TH> source comment
TH> disagrees with that.

No, something HAS (not had) to exist.  But not IN time (or at least not 
in our timelike dimension or subject to its entropy).

TH> > TH> not operate the
TH> > TH> same way that ours does. Maybe it's even non-linear. But it seems 
awful
TH> > TH> contradictory for a
TH> > TH> person to speak of a created universe yet deny any discussion as to 
what
TH> > TH> brought it into
TH> > TH> existence BEFORE it existed.
TH> >
TH> > Gen 1
TH> > In the beginning the God is creating the world.  Present tense!


TH> I don't know why you're bringing the Bible into this. It's not necessary.
TH> At least quote it properly
TH> if you do.

I am.  Quoting it properly.  The passage is habitually mistranslated 
from the original Hebrew.

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