Subj : The universe
To   : TODD HENSON
From : DAVE OLDRIDGE
Date : Sat Dec 09 2000 07:14 pm

TH> > .MSGID: 1:167/133.0 3a0bac6e
TH> > -=> DAVE OLDRIDGE wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
TH> >
TH> >  DO> Not necessarily.  The world has a North pole, but there is
TH> >  DO> nothing north of it.
TH> >
TH> >  DO> And I'm not being facetious here.  Time-space does seem to focus
TH> >  DO> on a singularity that we refer to as "the beginning" and we see
TH> >  DO> copious astronomical evidence in support of this.  If this model
TH> >  DO> is correct, then "before" the Big Bang is about as meaningless as
TH> >  DO> "north of the North Pole."
TH> >
TH> > Are you contradicting or agreeing with the classic understanding of
TH> > creatio ex nihlo? (Or, as we say in Jewish thought, yesh m'ayin.)


TH> Nobody seems to care to comment (not that they need to) on my Zen stories I
TH> posted, perhaps
TH> the bicker-mongers are still only interested in bickering (as has been
TH> evidenced recently). So, I
TH> thought I'd dig up an older topic that might be looked at afresh.

TH> I'm not quite sure why people find it so meaningless to speak of "before"
TH> the big bang. By the

It's mathematically in the same category as "north" of the north pole.  
As Hawking points out, you can normalize the whole picture by treating 
time (as we measure it) as an imaginary quantity (in the mathematical 
sense).  The singularity at t=0 then simply becomes a point on a 
hypersurface, special largely because of the coordinate system used (but also 
because the universe expands from it). 

TH> very fact that they say the universe had a *beginning*, it introduces the
TH> question of "before" the
TH> big bang, because there was SOMETHING before it which gave it existencem,
TH> whether it be a
TH> quantum fluctuation, God, moldy cheese, or whatever. They seem to assume
TH> that the only
TH> temporal reality in existence is the one that was created along with our
TH> space.

This is a failure to understand the math.  There is no need for there 
to be a t=-1 any more than there is a need for a REAL solution to X^2+1=0

TH> Even science rejects that. For one, many a scientist theorize that there
TH> are MANY different
TH> expanses of space-time that were created in many big bangs. These universes
TH> are seemingly
TH> separate from ours. Even though these different universes (if they even
TH> exist) might not explain
TH> the origin of our own, the concept of other temporal frames of reference
TH> outside THIS space-time
TH> continuum is a valid one.

TH> So if our universe had a beginning, then something had to come before it to
TH> initiate the action
TH> which made the universe. Now perhaps that primordial temporal context might

Perhaps, but not necessarily.  Something may will produce it from 
altogether outside and be effecting it now as well as at the beginning (and I 
did not misspell the verb back there).

TH> not operate the
TH> same way that ours does. Maybe it's even non-linear. But it seems awful
TH> contradictory for a
TH> person to speak of a created universe yet deny any discussion as to what
TH> brought it into
TH> existence BEFORE it existed.

Gen 1
In the beginning the God is creating the world.  Present tense!

TH> What do you think about that?

See above.  This is the case throughout the entire Bible!  Compare 
also:

Before Abraham was, I AM.

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