Subj : Bible To : Curtis Johnson From : Keith Knapp Date : Sat Nov 25 2000 02:29 pm CJ> > Uncapitalized, "gnostic" is more of a general attitude that there is CJ> > secret spiritual wisdom, etc. Church Father Clement of Alexandria, CJ> > for instance, while arguing against Gnostics, went on at great length CJ> > about the path of the "true Christian gnostic" such as himself. CJ> RZ> Really? A Christian gnostic. I'd like to hear more about that. CJ> I have to admit I haven't yet read the Clement stuff I have, CJ>and only a couple of works by Origen. But the Alexandrian school Curtis, stop intellectualizing about something that is beyond the intellect. Spirituality is not something you think about; it's something you do. Find a modern source to cause the Awakening the Gnostics talked about, and do it. It happens to your body, and it blows you away. The Gnostics 'got' the deep initiation and the ancestors of the Roman Church got only the exoteric nonsense. None of it makes any sense until you have actually lost bodily consciousness and Realized that you have always been Bliss and Release itself. The rest is mythology. CJ>of theology is pretty interesting, directly influenced by Neo- CJ>Platonism and also somewhat by the Gnostics. Clement and Origen CJ>were also trying do real philosophy with a Christian flavor. CJ>There's no question that they were the two best intellects CJ>Christianity had to offer in its first three centuries. Origen CJ>was also quite influential in the allegorical interpretation of CJ>scripture. You have got to read a new book titled "The Jesus Mysteries." I think the authors are half right and half wrong. CJ> The work in which Clement goes on at length about the true CJ>Christian "gnostic" is _Stromateis_. As I said, I haven't yet read CJ>that, but I do know that one characteristic of their "true Christian CJ>gnostic" that was shared with the Gnostics was secrecy about doctrine, CJ>and the duty, if need be, to lie about that doctrine to fellow CJ>Christians. Clement was explicit about this, and Origen, for example, CJ>did not believe in Hell but thought that preaching about it to the CJ>"simple Christians" was necessary to terrorize them into virtue. Ordinary people are taught to be nice and not kill others. This is good. But initiates are radiated into an awareness of the level where Self and God are literally the same thing. This is part of your body right now. You are always already the thing you are seeking. This is not an intellectual process, but somthing that happens to your body in the presence of an Initiate or a Realizer like Jesus. Find a Realizer. CJ> Another characteristic that the Alexandrian school shared CJ>with the Gnostics was secret literature. Of especial interest here CJ>is the discovery by Morton Smith of a letter by Clement in which CJ>he quotes texts that Clement claimed were part of the original CJ>Gospel of Mark and which were to be read only among a secret inner CJ>circle. They are of great textual interest, one reason being that CJ>in the letter Clement said they were to be inserted at two places CJ>where scholars had earlier suspected that passages had been deleted. CJ>This is gone into in excruciating scholarly detail in Smith's CJ>_Clement of Alexandria and a Secret Gospel of Mark_, which I have Stop wasting your time. The practice is this: be radiant Love or not. Or as Paul said: The Secret is this: Christ in you. The secret is hidden in plain sight. CJ>read. CJ> I'm afraid that to go much further into about this Secret CJ>Gospel of Mark, however, would bring me into a topic that the moderator CJ>just banned. CJ> > The Gnostics were a pretty diverse bunch, and their cosmogonies CJ> > were quite complex and varied, so one hesitates to generalize. But CJ> > your statement tends to fit the Neo-Platonists (IIRC) and the Manicheans CJ> > much better. A lot depends also on what you mean by "regain our CJ> > divinity." The Gnostics did not have a program of becoming God(s), CJ> > nor did the Manicheans. CJ> RZ> What did those people believe then? CJ> As I said, they were a pretty diverse bunch. One common factor CJ>is belief in salvation through a secret knowledge to be given only to CJ>the uninitiated. A usual form of this knowledge was the steps to be CJ>taken to ensure an ascent to the uppermost heaven at death to make CJ>it past the guardians of the respective spheres. (There seem to be CJ>interesting links to this with Paul's claim to have ascended to the CJ>third heaven when he learned something "it is not lawful to utter," CJ>and his allusions to principalities and powers, etc.). CJ> Another common feature of Gnostics was the notion that this CJ>world had created by a demiurge (a term borrowed from Plato) who was CJ>either evil or incompetent, and that this demiurge is to be identified CJ>with the God of the Old Testament, as opposed to the God of the New CJ>Testament. (Gnostics loved to quote Paul and GJohn.) This belief CJ>alone doesn't qualify a sect as Gnostic, however--the Marcionites CJ>believed this, and they weren't Gnostics. This foam is best explained by Freud. Have all your fears been demolished by falling into Radiant Bliss, or not? The Gnostics were just as idiotic as everyone else at assigning ultimate cause (story) to everything. The physical world has no meaning. It just is. Stop trying to figure this world out, and just get beyond it. You are Curtis Johnson, and that is good and right and normal. But once the sexual jolt goes up your spine into your head, you will lose track of Curtis Johnson. And once it goes above your head into the blissful tornado above your head, you will know that Curtis Johnson is okay, but that you don't know who or what that is. Once you have gotten beyond all danger, you will Know that Curtis Johnson is just a construct. Suddenly, all of your bodily bullshit, all of your history, will seem ephemeral. Given a choice, would you rather have bodily success, or infinite mindless Radiant Love? That is the proper context for the debate about Gnostics v. Literalists. CJ> A good introduction to the Gnostics is Elaine Pagel's book, CJ>which is relatively short. CJ>--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] CJ> * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000) CJ> on't just believe in miracles -- rely on them. --- PCBoard (R) v15.4/M 5 Beta * Origin: * Binary illusions BBS * Albuquerque, NM * 505.897.8282 * (1:15/63) .