Subj : Re: Extent of the Torah
To   : JOHN WILSON
From : TODD HENSON
Date : Tue Oct 31 2000 11:55 pm

> SGID: 1:153/7715.0 39ff514e
> -=> TODD HENSON wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
> 
>  TH> ...So no, what you said still
>  TH> doesn't show that the universe
>  TH> was around "forever", meaning without beginning or end.
> 
>  Forever means: Always. For a limitless time. As time *itself*
>  began with the universe's creation, that's all the time there is.
>  So far (!) that's  forever. :-)


In that case, "forever" might not mean "limitless". If the universe had a
beginning, then it's 
timeline isn't infinite, but only extends back about 15 billion years (or
in that ballpark). That's 
not limitless.


>  >  hasn't had enough time to get to know itself. Thats why we exist.
>                                           
>  TH> Well, at least that's ONE clear point that might be established -
>  TH> that the universe has not
>  TH> existed for an infinite length of time. But, what makes you think
>  TH> the universe doesn't know
>  TH> itself? How long does it take?
> 
>  I think it'll take forever :-)
> 
>  >  If my opinion *were* well thought out, it would indicate
>  > something about the
>  >  collective unconscious attempting to become one with the collective
>  >  consciousness....   :-)
>  
>  TH> Is that so? Are you saying that your opinion is *not* well
>  TH> thought? If so, why not?
> 
>  Yes. No. I havn't given it an infinate amount of time. :-)


"No it's not well thought" or "no, I'm not saying that it wasn't well
thought"?


>  BTW it was you who declared my opinion `not well thought out'--
>  true, I admit of all my opinions. :-) I am a Process :-)
> 
>   >
>  >  >  TH> What would lead a person to think that space-time has
>  >  >  TH> intelligence in the first place?
>  >  >
>  >  >  The presence of intelligence in the universe.
> 
>  >
>  >  TH> That doesn't do much to really answer the question
>  >
>  >  Sure it does. Succiently.
>  >
>  >  The Universe IS space-time. That within it, intelligence exists.
>  >  (is developing).
>  
>  TH> To say that intelligence exists within it (as in, it contains
>  TH> living creatures)
> 
>    No no....no implication of living creatures...


There are no living creatures in our universe? Well, I'm alive, I live in
this continuum, so I'm not 
sure what you're disagreeing with.


>  TH> is no where NEAR
>  TH> saying that the actual continuum IS intelligent, which is exactly
>  TH> what is meant by saying the
>  TH> universe is conscious.
> 
>  It's becoming more conscious. It's consciousness is partially
>  dependent upon knowledge which it is accumulating.


Then how did it create life before it learned how? 

And why stop your line of pondering with this universe? If you are
comparing it to a baby that is 
growing and learning, then it must have had some kind of "parent".


>  Th> That's like saying that ocean water is
>  TH> itself is alive because it contains
>  TH> living creatures.
> 
>   No, it is not.


Yes, it is.


>  Th> Or, that the ocean is intelligent because it
>  TH> contains intelligent humans who are
>  TH> always in it at any given time.  So, which is it?
> 
>  Neither.


Then there's no reason to believe that the universe is alive simply because
there are living 
creatures in it.
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