Subj : The universe To : Todd Henson From : Joseph Voigt Date : Tue Oct 31 2000 08:14 am Tuesday October 31 2000 08:35, TODD HENSON wrote to JOSEPH VOIGT: >> >> Ok. As Time itself began when the Universe did, yes the Universe >> >> has `been around' forever. But forever is not over yet :-), so >> >> the Universe >> >> TH> If the space-time continuum had a *beginning*, then time in our >> TH> universe is not infinite. >> >> He didn't say it was. Why don't you READ what he says? When the >> universe ends (if it does) then time also ends... forever (all of >> time) is over. Get over it already and TRY to understand it. By the >> very fact that you speak of a *beginning* of this universe implies a >> reference to a temporal context that is above our continuum. No, it >> doesn't. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp? Time is >> intrinsic to the universe. -Temporal- implies TIME. The beginning >> of time is synonymous with the beginning of the universe... >> spacetime is the fabric of the universe. You are NOT permitted to >> imply a reference above a continuum when none is needed and it is >> logically absurd to do so anyway. "Beginning" in the context of time >> is nothing more than a point of origin. You're being silly to >> somehow think that there just MUST exist a reference outside of time >> to be able to consider the origin of time. LOL. TH> You assume that other temporal realities cannot exist outside of our TH> own. Nope, you don't get to tell me what I assume. My above stands as is. I said nothing about any "other" anything. And I also said nothing about flying pigs or "other" gods either. TH> For example, some scientists (mostly in the field of as far as I TH> have read) believe that there are multiple universes, each having TH> it's own expanse of space-time. Science works with falsifiable evidence. Scientists do not -believe- there are multiple universes. They may speculate about them, but there is no reason to think they must exist... and, either way, space-time cannot exist outside of itself re ANY universe. You're still dismissed. TH> The laws of time may even be different from ours, according to some. And just what ARE the laws of time, Todd? Time cannot exist outside of itself and is intrinsic to the universe. TH> Either way, you seem stuck on this idea that any reference to a TH> temporal reality outside of THIS continuum MUST be false, which is TH> silly, even by scientific theories. Step outside of THIS continuum. See if you can do that. So much for your reference to a temporal reality outside of this one, huh? What you don't seem to realize is that you can dream ANY universe (spacetime and all) outside of this one, but you are only addressing mental speculation as there is no LINK from one universe to another... and hence no OUTSIDE a universe. Your god has no place to hide and you are being silly. TH> Clearly if science TH> theorizes the existence of other universes, where all possible TH> outcomes of each situation are played out according to some quantum TH> theories, then it is not so irrational to think of other temporal TH> contexts that are separate from the continuum that we happen to TH> inhabit. It's not a theory, Todd. Theories can be tested. It's speculation and there is no reason to assume anything about "other" temporal contexts. None of this brings your god into existence, BTW. TH> And, look at the language you are using. You speak of a beginning of TH> the universe. If the universe had a beginning, then it is perfectly TH> rational to wonder about what came before it. What was it that caused TH> the Big Bang in the first place? A quantum flux is more than sufficient. No gods required. And the universe DID have a beginning. TH> That is not an irrational question at all, and it is not irrational TH> to understand. And it's been adequately answered numerous times. Too bad your god doesn't come into existence with the answer. TH> Your rebuttals aren't sufficient. Sufficient enough to show "godsdunnit" is ludicrous. >> TH> So no, what you said still doesn't show that the universe was >> TH> around "forever", meaning without beginning or end. >> >> Yes, it certainly DOES show that the universe was around forever, >> but the second part of your statement is incorrect. Forever, in >> this context, MEANS -all of time-, it does NOT mean without >> beginning or end (that's a judeoxian dogma). Take off your >> bibliolater hat for a change and really THINK about TH> Ah, so noone ever thought in terms of "forever" (as in without start TH> or finish) besides the Judeochristians? Are you sure you want to make TH> that claim? Read what I SAID! I never made the claim you attribute to me. You are notoriously dishonest. I said it's a judeoxian dogma. I didn't say a danged thing about the set of all -other- dogmas. "Without beginning or end" -IS- a judeoxian dogma. I said nothing about whether it as a dogma of any other religions, as nobody here is propounding TRUTHS about any others. TH> You prove my opinion of you - you are on an anti-Bible inquisition. I have no interest in your opinions. Your bibliolaterist opinions have been shown to be misguided over and over again, so I have every reason to think all your opinions are equally misguided. As the bible is a myth, I am no more anti-bible than I am anti-Norse myth. TH> You equate the idea of infinity as I have used it with TH> Judeochristianity. That IS the way you used it... with judeoxianity. TH> You are on a petty crusade to spew hate towards Judeochristianity. Spew hate?? You really are a trip, Henson. Am I spewing hate at the Zeus and Odin gods also? LOL. I have no interest in the gods of your beliefs... it's only when you pretend they are REAL and would ACT on what you believe they are telling you, that I have a problem. TH> Therefore, any ideas which involve infinity must be viciously TH> attacked. Infinity is only a mental construct and says nothing about gods. Infinity is not being attacked at all. Your belief that "godsdunnit" is being addressed. Dismissed. TH> Boy, what a mind. Yep, too bad for you that the application of reason is able to knock down all those absolute "TRUTHS" of yours, huh? .... "Paul is a liar, he said so. (Romans 3:7)" - Simon Ewins --- FastEcho 1.46 (reg) * Origin: The Danse - Where Norse Gods Ponder Their Navels (1:387/638) .