Subj : Re: The Game To : JOSHUA LEE From : TODD HENSON Date : Mon Oct 30 2000 06:48 pm > SGID: 1:167/133.0 39fc3ca4 > -=> TODD HENSON wrote to JOSHUA LEE <=- > > > It was humorous, and I didn't really expect a response. > > > > TH> Jesus never made a mistatement. Nor did he make false prophecies. > > > > He only had four conflicting biographies. ;-) > > TH> Yes yes, we've been around that block before. Not true. > > I'm sure that on HOLYSMOKE they can produce, as they have before, > volumes of evidence if you're interested. I'm not interested in doing > that; especially not here, on the philosophy echo. As I said, been there, done that. I didn't find any credibility in what they said. > > TH> do was to allow the spiritual nature of God's law to be expressed > > TH> without the framework of earthly legalism. > > > > What's so bad about obeying a law? > > TH> Read on... > > I did read on, and you did not explain it; you never touched the > subject. Your question was not responsive to the message. You were looking at it from a very elementary view, when I was delving into deeper issues of how the law and the spirit relate. > > TH> Let's take a look at the two types of laws - earthly (physical), and > > TH> spiritual. Earthly laws do not, for the most part, care about the > > TH> contents of the heart. > > > > TH> Spiritual law is different. It DOES care about the heart, but it > > TH> doesn't have it's ultimate consequences enforced here on earth. > > > > The Izbitzer Rebbe and others, especially in the Chasidic and Mussar > > traditions, talk about one's thoughts and heart and the importance > > of keeping them pure. However, we don't believe that eternal torture > > awaits all that had the wrong religion. > > TH> Drop all the anti-Christian urges to demonize, just for a second. Don't > TH> jump the gun. > > It's not anti-xtian, Zoastrianism and Mithraism teach this too. It's > that form of theology that truely does the "demonizing"; as it says > that the followers of any other religion are to dwell with the demons. That's a very basic and broad description, which does not accurately reflect inportant nuances of NT teaching. > Due to this, Zoastrianism, xtianity, and Islam all justified the most > horrific of crimes against humanity. I consider it to be a pernicious The teachings of the NT are not compatible with this. Irrelevant. > doctrine. Luckily, many xtians don't believe it today; or believe it > in a highly modified form, such as yourself. Exactly what do I believe, and how is my belief different from that of ancient Christians? Hint: don't bother me with Catholic Imperial Romanism - I want NT Christianity. > TH> But besides, I was informed in the Judaica echo by someone that a > TH> disrespect or disbelief in > TH> the Oral Torah IS something that can earn a person a hot eternity, and > > He didn't say hot eternity, for the second time, it was a Jew (an informed > and unassimilated Jew) *loosing his portion* ofthe World to Come. (A rare Well, that's not what was said - perhaps you are thinking of another conversation. > event, due to conflicting passages, perhaps not an occurence at all.) > This is a lot different than a "hot eternity", incidentally. Even > the irredemably wicked (which are few in number) are reduced to > "ashes under the feet of tzaddikim". So those who do not have a portion of the World to Come are simply reduced to ashes and are no more? > TH> that would include every Christian, would it not? > > The righteous of the gentiles, who obey the 7 mitzvos of Bnai Noach, > have a portion in the World to Come. It's a lot easier for you guys > in a sense. All you have to do is be civilized. Unless we disrespect the Oral Torah, according to what I have been told. > TH> Maybe I'm wrong, but I may have brought this > TH> to your attention before, > TH> and I do remember some disagreeing with that claim, but I don't > TH> remember a decent answer being given. > > We discussed it on another echo. I explained what Jews believe, and > how Jews don't believe that. You insist now that they do. I have I am merely relating a conversation which I had with someone. > no inclination towards refuting strawmen of your own imagination. What you need to incline toward is calming down and stop being so defensive. Here is the conversation: -----BEGIN----- >> TH> Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall >> TH> awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting >> TH> contempt. >> >> TH> Where does Judaism place this resurrection? When will it happen? >> >> Popular belief holds this to be at the "end of times," after the >> end of the world, long after the coming of the Messiah. But it is >> uncertain. TH> It looks like some will suffer some kind of eternal suffering, from the TH> wording. Is that also a popular opinion? Have the sages of old given much TH> opinion on that? Well, the Sages speak of "Those who don't have a share in the World to Come," which I understand to mean not that they will stay dead, but that they will suffer some kind of eternal suffering. TH> I wonder, according to Judaism, what a person must do in order to earn TH> such a fate? "These are those who do not have a share in the World to Come: One who says, 'There is no resurrection according to the Torah,' or: 'The Torah is not from Heaven,' and an 'Epicuros.'" The Talmud interprets "Epicuros" as one who shows disrespect to Torah Scholars, or to the Torah itself. This includes, according to various commentators, any form of disbelief in God's existence or in His oneness, denial of Prophecy, disbelief in the Oral Torah, disrespect for the Sacrificial Offerings, disrespect for the holidays, desecration of Sacred Things, any contemptous open disobeying of the Torah's commandments that is done in spite and denial of it, and disbelief in the advent of the Messiah. "Rabbi Akiva adds: So too one who reads the external books." This is interpreted as referring to "books of heretics, who interpret the written Bible according to their own opinions, and do not follow the Sages' /midrashic/ interpretation" (AlFasi). I do not think he was referring to the Christian "New Testament," since as far as I know in Rabbi Akiva's time it hadn't existed yet, but the same rule would probably apply. >> TH> What connection is there to this resurrection, and the time that a >> TH> soul enters gehennom or Paradise? >> >> As far as I know, no connection. TH> Do souls wait around in Paradise until the time of the resurrection, to be TH> resurrected to everlasting life as in Daniel 12:2 then? I think so. -----END----- So, no, I am not inventing a straw man, but am relating what has been told to me. I don't know why you act as if I am accusing someone of something. > Especially strawmen that now amount to your very own anti-semetic > propaganda of "secret Jewish beliefs". Joshua, you can be reasonable sometimes, but other times you can be so full of crap it's amazing. Now, because I have related to you something that another Jew has told me, you start tossing around the "anti-Semite" label. Do you really know how ridiculous you sound when you pull that nonsense? Do you care? > TH> I can't remember it if was you or not. > > It was me and another on the JUDAICA echo; where this is on-topic. > > > Rabbi Hillel (a sage who lived before J.) said, "What is hateful to > > yourself, do not do to others. This is the Torah, the rest is commentary. > > Now go and study!" Note that he said "now go and study", once one > > TH> Ah yes, that is the quote. Thanks. > > Mesectes Shabbos, I recall daf 31, but perhaps it's 30. > > Of course, "love thy neighbor as thyself" is in Leviticus; which > Rabbi Akiva (who lived a generation after J.) said "this is a great > principle of the Torah." I'll have to save this so I won't have to keep asking. > > TH> However, the reliance on earthly law was never God's intention. > > > > The Torah is not earthly. > > TH> I was referring to a system of earthly enforcement, as per the various > TH> crimes and sentences in the Torah. > > The Torah commands the existence of courts, the accepting of their > decisions, and going by the majority decision. There's nothing that > is "more earthly" or "less earthly" in the religion of the Torah > concerning it's commandments. A Jew is commanded to do his divine > service in this world, or why would we be sent here at all? > > > TH> The spiritual core of what Jesus taught was the same spiritual lessons > > TH> as the ?0A? --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr4 * Origin: BBS Networks @ www.bbsnets.com 808-839-5016 (1:10/345) .