Subj : Extent of the Torah
To   : Todd Henson
From : Joseph Voigt
Date : Mon Oct 30 2000 01:30 pm

Monday October 30 2000 13:20, TODD HENSON wrote to JOHN WILSON:

 >> Ok. As Time itself began when the Universe did, yes the Universe
 >> has `been around' forever. But forever is not over yet :-), so the
 >> Universe

 TH> If the space-time continuum had a *beginning*, then time in our
 TH> universe is not infinite.

He didn't say it was.  Why don't you READ what he says?  When the universe ends 
(if it does) then time also ends... forever (all of time) is over. Get over it 
already and TRY to understand it.

 TH> By the very fact that you speak of a *beginning* of this universe
 TH> implies a reference to a temporal context that is above our
 TH> continuum.

No, it doesn't.  Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?  Time is intrinsic 
to the universe.  -Temporal- implies TIME.  The beginning of time is synonymous 
with the beginning of the universe... spacetime is the fabric of the universe.  
You are NOT permitted to imply a reference above a continuum when none is 
needed and it is logically absurd to do so anyway. "Beginning" in the context 
of time is nothing more than a point of origin. You're being silly to somehow 
think that there just MUST exist a reference outside of time to be able to 
consider the origin of time.  LOL.

 TH> So no, what you said still doesn't show that the universe was around
 TH> "forever", meaning without beginning or end.

Yes, it certainly DOES show that the universe was around forever, but the 
second part of your statement is incorrect.  Forever, in this context, MEANS 
-all of time-, it does NOT mean without beginning or end (that's a judeoxian 
dogma).  Take off your bibliolater hat for a change and really THINK about 
that.  The universe exists forever (all of time) from beginning to end.  When 
the universe ends, time ends... and "forever" goes POOF! Understand now?

 >> hasn't had enough time to get to know itself. Thats why we exist.

 TH> Well, at least that's ONE clear point that might be established - that
 TH> the universe has not existed for an infinite length of time.

Nobody ever said it has.

 >> The Universe IS space-time. That within it, intelligence exists.
 >> (is developing).

 TH> To say that intelligence exists within it (as in, it contains living
 TH> creatures) is no where NEAR saying that the actual continuum IS
 TH> intelligent, which is exactly what is meant by saying the universe is
 TH> conscious.

Did he SAY that?  Read his above again.

.... And on the eighth day Man created God.
--- FastEcho 1.46 (reg)
 * Origin: The Danse - Where Norse Gods Ponder Their Navels (1:387/638)

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