Subj : Bible
To   : TODD HENSON
From : Curtis Johnson
Date : Mon Oct 23 2000 07:57 pm

 -=> Quoting TODD HENSON to CURTIS JOHNSON <=-

 >  Not most Christians, no.  Few people have "doing as much
 > harm to fellow men as possible" as a motive, even when that is the
 > result.  It is also quite relevant that Christians in the first
 > three or four centuries lacked the means to do significant harm
 > to their fellow men.  However, wishing and proclaiming that harm
 > would befall their fellow men (especially, but not only Christians 
 > who disagreed with them) was endemic to early Christianity, starting
 > with Paul's wish that those who disagreed with him about circumcision
 > should accidentally castrate themselves.  Students of the rhetoric of 


 TH> If anyone is a preacher of hate (and lies), it's you, you who chooses
 TH> to exaggerate small secondary issues (and even outrightly reinterpret
 TH> them) in order to cast a cloud of dishonest smearing around a 
 TH> revelation of truth. 

	"If anyone is a preacher of hate (and lies), it's you . . ."
A nice baby step in the practice of the rhetoric of vituperation,
but you really must read early Christian writers for inspiration.
Tertullian is a nice place to pick up the feel of it, and then
maybe later you can graduate to real masters like Jerome and 
Chrysostom.

 TH> Paul, the man you spoke of, can only be interpretted as seriously 
 TH> wishing for people to castrate themselves by someone who simply 
 TH> isn't being serious or honest. But, the hallmark of the Bible 

	Galatians 5:12 (NAB)--"Would that those who are troubling
you might go the whole way, and castrate themselves!"
	Jerusalem has the euphemized  "Tell those who are disturbing 
you I would like to see the knife slip," but notes "Lit. `I wish
that those who are disturbing you might go even further (than 
circumcision and castrate themselves.'" 

	Since there seems to be no real question of different MSS
traditions here, this is a fine test verse (among others) to test 
whether a particular translation is "serious or honest."

 TH> haters is to take forms of expression and insert their 
 TH> own hate into it, and complain about it. 

	I don't hate the Bible, Todd.  It would still be interesting, 
even without all that violence and perverted sex.

 TH> The hate you assign to Paul is a manifestation of your own. This is
 TH> the same Paul who wrote about how even the heathen gentiles had the 
 TH> law of God written in their hearts, and could adhere to that moral 
 TH> light even though they didn't have the benefit of the Law of God as 
 TH> detailed and manifestly as the Jews did. This is the same man who 

	But if they still kept to their own religion or philosophy 
they'd go to Hell, right?  
	
 TH> cetainly preachd about the reality of hell, but who also expression 

	It's SOOO hard to convince people that you love them when
you're also telling them that your Big Brother in the Sky will
torture them for not becoming His "servant."

 TH> great love, zeal, and compassion for his fellow Jews, so much so 
 TH> that he would have gone to hell for them if he could.

	That's not the same Paul that wrote Galatians. . .

 TH> No Curtis, you would rather see what you want to see. You're 
 TH> revealing quite a lot, but not in the way you think.
 
	Undoubtedly both sentences apply to us all.  But I am
pretty sure that what I see is there (I did give you the cite from
Paul for it, after all). 

 >  Is it possible that you've gone a little overboard in 
 > reaction to me simply pointing out that belief in Hell was a part
 > the earliest Christian belief?

 TH> Or perhaps he sees your agenda.

	I have an agenda?  Could please tell me what it is, so that
I would then have an idea of whether I'm on-track?





--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
 * Origin: America's favorite whine - it's your fault! (1:261/1000)

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