Subj : Re: Best OLMR for Windows To : George Lagergren From : William McBrine Date : Wed Nov 01 2000 01:09 pm -=> George Lagergren wrote to William McBrine <=- GL> William, doesn't the Intel 32-bit x86 CPU chips support BOTH 32-bit GL> protected mode for graphic mode and 32-bit protected mode for text GL> mode programming? The CPU doesn't enter into it. The distinction between GUI and console (which is not quite the same as the distinction between graphic and text modes) is made only on the level of the operating system. But yes, of course, a 32-bit program can be GUI, console, or even non-GUI graphical. GL> William, is the term a "console mode" app program just a fancy name GL> for a 32-bit protected mode app program working in (32-bit) text GL> mode of the OS? I don't consider it "fancy" -- it's standard terminology -- but yes. GL> So in the "DOS box" within Windows 9x and beyond, the OS supports the GL> concept of using 32-bit text mode executable pgms and driver pgms, right? Drivers are a completely different issue; they have nothing to do with apps, either console or GUI. Otherwise, yes, you can run both true DOS programs and native Win32 console apps in the so-called "DOS Box". The latter are, however, _not_ DOS apps. It's important to realize that, through DPMI, even DOS programs can run in 32-bit protected mode. (The standard (non-XT) DOS version of MultiMail does this, as do all other programs compiled with DJGPP.) This is still distinct from a native Win32 console app. GL> Or can one really access or make use of Windows 9x's 32-bit protected GL> mode in text mode app pgms and driver pgms without FIRST going into GL> Windows 9x's graphic mode? You can't boot into "DOS mode" and run Win32 console apps, if that's what you mean. But you can run them full-screen and ignore the GUI if you like. DOS mode is just that -- DOS -- and not Windows. Unlike Unix and OS/2, which can be run without GUIs, the GUI in Windows is inseperable from the other things that make Windows an OS. Nevertheless, a Win32 _app_ is not required to utilize the GUI. GL> And do most of Windows 9x internal OS drivers and app pgms operate in GL> 32-bit graphic mode rather 32-bit text mode? Neither. Such distinctions don't apply to drivers. GL> Questions: Will Microsoft ever turn the Windows OS into a completely GL> 100% based graphic mode OS? Thus leaving out any support for text mode? I don't speak for Microsoft, but I highly doubt it. There were rumors, prior to the release of Windows ME, that support for DOS programs had been removed from it; but this turned out to mean only that, by default, it lacked the ability to boot into DOS _mode_ -- DOS apps still run fine in the DOS box. And even if DOS support _were_ completely removed from Windows, that would not be the same as eliminating support for native console apps. The only OS I know that doesn't really have a console is the MacOS, and even that's changing with MacOS X, AFAIK. GL> IOW, most Windows 9x user folks feel using a text mode type of app GL> program is still using an old DOS character (text) based app pgm, right? It's more of an incorrect belief than a feeling. Awareness of the very existence of native Win32 console apps is low. (Microsoft's "DOS box" labelling doesn't help.) The situation is quite different in the OS/2 and Unix worlds. Most of the people who'd misidentify Win32 console programs as DOS were former DOS users themselves, perhaps coming by way of Windows 3.1. But there's a large new class of people whose first system was Win 95 or later. Ironically, lacking experience with DOS, perhaps they'll be more open-minded. ;-) GL> So Multi Mail for Windows is two pgms - one is a graphic mode pgm and GL> one is a text (console app) mode pgm usable thru the Windows "DOS Box", GL> right? No. All versions of MultiMail are text-mode. GL> IOW, the OS/2 OS has two different processes to run either: GL> 1.) a 16-bit real mode (old DOS) text-based app pgm or GL> 2.) a 32-bit protected mode text based (console app) app pgm? In fact, as a relic from OS/2 1.x, OS/2 supports native 16-bit apps as well as native 32-bit apps; and of course, even DOS apps can be 32-bit, as noted above. App types supported by OS/2 2.x+: OS/2 16-bit, console OS/2 32-bit, console OS/2 32-bit, Presentation Manager (GUI) Also a subset of these are Workplace Shell (WPS) enabled Windows 16-bit, GUI Win32s, GUI (not the full Win32) DOS Real Mode DOS 16-bit DPMI DOS 32-bit DPMI App types supported by Windows 9x, NT, 2000 and ME: OS/2 16-bit (NT only) Windows 16-bit Win32s Win32, console Win32, GUI DOS Real Mode DOS 16-bit DPMI DOS 32-bit DPMI .... "I think not," said Descartes, and promptly disappeared. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.38 * Origin: COMM Port OS/2 juge.com 204.89.247.1 (281) 980-9671 (1:106/2000) .