Subj : CHAT Interesting perspective... To : All From : ceri@twmba.net Date : Sat Jan 17 2004 12:27 am From: Ceri ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MM All, Since I became Pagan, I've noticed a number of topics that are guaranteed to spark heated religiously motivated debate. "Is witchcraft a religion?" is one of them. I was cleaning my files & found this comment. FTR I maintain my position that one can be spiritual without being religious, most faiths under the Pagan umbrella are ones that are deeply personal ones & therefore are 'defined' (allowing for the limits of that concept) by what label the individual identifies with. AFAIC a Solitary Discordian Wiccan has as much right to use those labels to describe their spirituality as an Alexandrian Wiccan... Anyway this is an interesting perspective... Lee [chomp] wrote: Okay, I don't know if this would help anyone. I got this from Robin Artisson who is a Pellar and Cunning Man of the Old Faith (Traditional Witchcraft). He is the author of the Meadows of Elfhame site and the Halls of Clan Droen/House of Faringdoun Trod site, which have been referred to before and if anyone is interesting in reading more. My question was simple. Is Traditional Witchcraft a religion, and depending on what the answer is, please explain why. Here is the reply, word for word. FFF, Oak Man YES, Witchcraft is a religion. It fulfills the definition of religion in every way. See below: RELIGION (from Dictionary.com) reúliúgion Pronunciation Key (ruh-lijun) (noun) 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. WITCHCRAFT (compare with the above, point for point) 1. The Craft Believes in and reveres powers, or in some cases, just a single power, as being the source of the universe, and sometimes as having the ability to control or make changes in the universe. For some, this power or these powers can also reveal important things about mankind or about the unknown. Sometimes these powers are specific entities, and sometimes this power or powers are natural forces, or generalized simply as "nature" or an even more mysterious force. Sometimes they are parts of the universe, and sometimes, they are parts of man. Fact is, the "force" or "forces" or "power" or "powers" still remain, in some form. This is true for all Craft. Even if you don't think that these powers are "Supernatural", that's just a matter of semantics- Nature is an all-inclusive term. "Supernatural" simply refers to things that cannot be proven scientifically, not to things that are "above nature". Logically, Nothing could be "above Nature." And no matter what kind of witch you are or where you are, and no matter what "powers" you believe in, I can assure you that you can't 'scientifically' prove that they are there, and that they act or exist or interact with you as you believe they do. But the wise know, and have always known, that not all portions of reality are 'provable' nor do they need to be- you also can't scientifically prove that you love someone, or that you feel compassion, or that you trust someone, or even that consiousness exists at all- but we all know those things are real. 2. Witchcraft, more than most religions, Is a HIGHLY personal system grounded in such beliefs as mentioned above, and for a few of us, it is a a system that IS instiutionalized, in the form of a coven or a series of covens or groups that all share the same belief, and that have done so over time, and that will continue to do so; and this belief expresses itself for ALL OF US through outward signs, such as ritual, meditations, activities in groups or alone, offerings, or written or spoken expressions of belief in the Craft and the powers behind it, which every one of us at the list has done at one time or another- and finally 3. Every one of us pursues a better understanding of or ability in the Craft, conscientiously and with zeal, on some level. That is called "devotion". We all love the craft; we collect books on it; we read about it daily; we write into E-lists to talk about it. A lot of Christians do the same thing in regards to their own religion. So do a lot of muslims. So do a lot of jews. So do a lot of Buddhists. And so on. The Only people who crusade around arguing that the Craft is not a religion are the people who hate religion, but who want to be in the craft- and the only way they can do that is to turn the craft into something that it is not. The craft to them HAS to be different from religion, or they can't be involved in it. Typically, these people come from VERY bad, restricitve, and shitty christian backgrounds, and they associate the ignorance and stupidity and shallowness of christianity with ALL religions, and they become phobic of anything called "religion". But what these sad people don't realize is this: 1. Witchcraft descends from a religious tradition many times older than christianity; it is the remains of the old European Pagan religious tradition, albeit a distant cousin. Christianity is not a good example of a religion. It is a BAD example. Religion is a natural impulse to mankind; all human societies and EVERY human culture originally expressed seom religion, and kept it in some form up until the modern day. The most primitive of people have it. Christianity is just one late bad example of religion; and christianity is more political than it is spiritual. It has always been that way. RELIGION is not the problem. CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM and to an extent JUDAISM are the problems, in the west. These are the things that turn people off to "religion"- but you must not let it. NOT ALL RELIGIONS are bad like the current dominant religions in the west. R.A. -- = = = = = = = = = = = = = Ceridwen is a default net alias Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground. --- * Origin: TransNet Gateway 2.11+ 1111 (3:640/1010) .