Subj : Re: Angels and demons
To   : jimmylogan
From : Boraxman
Date : Sat May 24 2025 11:21:00

-=> jimmylogan wrote to Boraxman <=-

 ji> @MSGID: <6830D001.10017.dove_dove-rel@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
 ji> @REPLY: <682FA3D5.8143.dove-rel@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
 -=> Boraxman wrote to Jcurtis <=-

 Jc> The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future. What we have
 Jc> today is powerless against His judgment. Forseen and foretold.

 Bo> How do you reconcile us having free with with God being able to see
 Bo> into the future?

 Bo> Ive read and heard many interpretations but I'm wondering about yours.
 Bo> If we truly can change our ways, then the future is not determined
 Bo> until we make our choice, and therefore God cannot know.  If God knows
 Bo> our choice, then we have no
 Bo> choice, and from where come responsibility?

 ji> You sound like my son. :-) He calls it the illusion of choice.

 ji> Personally, I see it as God is outside of time, space and
 ji> matter. Therefore He is the same yesterday, today and
 ji> tomorrow.

 ji> You and I don't know what will happen tomorrow, nor what
 ji> decisions we will make, but He does. Does this mean we
 ji> don't have a choice? Not at all! From our perspective,
 ji> we haven't made the choice yet. But from His perspective,
 ji> it's already happened.

 ji> So if it's 'already happened' how can it change? It can't.
 ji> So how can it be a choice? Because TO US it hasn't been
 ji> made yet.

 ji> Foreknowledge is NOT the say as predestination. If God
 ji> DECIDED for us, we would have no choice. But He doesn't
 ji> decide for us, but He does KNOW what we are going to
 ji> choose.

This is a problem that is discussed in physics as well, whether the
universe is deterministic and whether a deternistic universe allows
free will.


Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
before it is considered.  If I know that you are going to eat Corn
Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the
possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
eating those Corn Flakes.  Foreknowledge of every event, removes every
possibility.  There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

It still is reasonable to act as if we have choices, after all, our
choices are influenced by what happens to us, but this creates a bit
of a conundrum.  If we indeed only have one path, who set that path?

For us mere mortals, we can attribute responsibility to each other,
because there is not other candidate.  But if a Deity was the first
Prime Mover, then responsibility lies there.  Then we have
predestination.
 
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