Subj : Re: Angels and demons
To   : Boraxman
From : jimmylogan
Date : Tue Aug 05 2025 16:32:40

-=> Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

 Bo> I think we are saying the same thing, that the decision does come from
 Bo> within us, so it is ours, and the outcome could, at least in theory,
 Bo> be known ahead of time.


 ji> Have you considered that hell is a choice? If someone says, "I don't
 ji> want to have anything to do with a God that would do this" is
 ji> basically getting their wish?

 ji> Or to put it another way, God loves you enough to allow you to
 ji> decide to follow Him or not - He doesn't force it either one
 ji> way or another.

 ji> We all sin, and evil has to be judged for there to be justice.
 ji> Jesus took the punishment for us, but the punishment was still
 ji> taken.

 Bo> In your bar-fight analogy, our lack of knowledge blinds us, we cannot
 Bo> know for certain the outcomes of our actions.  To someone that can
 Bo> see, the outcome is certain.  The moral implications for those who
 Bo> see, differ from those who can't.

Ah, but we DO know the moral implications... Do you inherently
'know' it is wrong to hurt or kill someone? Or does someone have
to force you to know it?

 Bo> However, the issue I think isn't whether we agree on what is
 Bo> happening, but whether we consider it moral or not.  To me, it is not
 Bo> just for a being which DOES have foreknowledge, to judge those that
 Bo> don't have foreknowledge for their mistakes.

So no one should be judged at all? If there is a moral absolute,
then THAT is what we are judged against.

 Bo> As an agnostic, to me, this isn't anything to do with God, but does
 Bo> reveal the flawed, and deeply troubling ethics of the culture which
 Bo> created this idea.

Just to make sure I follow your train of thought, you mean the 
culture that created the idea that we should be held accountable?
Or that there is a God that is above that? I want to know what you
mean...

 Bo>  God in this case is never at fault.  No matter how
 Bo> hidden He is, no matter how much reason and rationality argues against
 Bo> His existence,

I think reason and rationality actually arugue FOR a Creator. :-)

 Bo>  God presumes no responsibility whatsover for His
 Bo> rejection.  Its the fault of Man.  This is a kind of thinking which is
 Bo> still found in that culture today.  It is a perverted morality.  Those
 Bo> who claim "meekness" are always the worst.

So I ask again, are you saying that NO ONE should be judged
at all? 

The point is that we are all 'guitly' - and God in the form of man,
Jesus the Christ, took the punishment for all that guilt. You say
He takes no responsibility - but I say He took the ULTIMATE
responsibility and took the punishment, the weight, the suffering.

And then He STILL loves you enough to let you decide if you want to
accept the pardon offered or not.

 Bo> No human being deserves to burn for one day, let alone eternity, for
 Bo> the "sin" of using the mind that God gave them to come to an
 Bo> understandable conclusion.  The fact that people think this is just,
 Bo> is an indication on how the morally righteous can easily be pulled
 Bo> into believing and doing terrible things.

Two questions - 1) where do you get the moral ground to say that
no one should have to pay for thier sin?

2) Are you equating 'morraly righteous' and terrible acts with 
the actual teachings of Jesus?





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