Subj : Re: Angels and demons
To   : Boraxman
From : jimmylogan
Date : Wed Jun 04 2025 21:23:38

-=> Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

 Bo> Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
 Bo> before it is considered.  If I know that you are going to eat Corn
 Bo> Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the
 Bo> possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
 Bo> eating those Corn Flakes.  Foreknowledge of every event, removes every
 Bo> possibility.  There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

 ji> You said: "Foreknowledge removes all other possibilities." But I
 ji> see it the other way around. You only know I'll eat Corn Flakes
 ji> because I chose to. If I suddenly decide on Raisin Bran instead,
 ji> then your foreknowledge would reflect that. Your knowing is a
 ji> result of my choice - not the cause of it.

 Bo> If I know you will have cornflakes, assuming I do have foreknowledge,
 Bo> then you WONT change your mind.  Gods foreknowledge cannot be flawed.
 Bo> Your sudden decisions can't happen.  Either my foreknowledge is
 Bo> imperfect, and subject to change, or you can't decide anything other
 Bo> than what matches my foreknowledge.

My point is the foreknowledge is knowing what I will choose, but
not the CAUSE of my choice. It's hard to put into words or even
thoughts something that is beyond human comprehension.

 ji> That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
 ji> free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
 ji> still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
 ji> inside time.

 ji> So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
 ji> no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
 ji> being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.

 ji> You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
 ji> We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
 ji> be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
 ji> doesn't mean He causes them.

 Bo> I sort of agree.  The decision is still from within us, it is,
 Bo> technically us. This is why I think the claim we have no free will
 Bo> doesn't quite hold.  BUT I also view us having determistic decisions
 Bo> (ie, our decisions are already determined by mechanics from the very
 Bo> start) compatible with the idea that we do
 Bo> make decisions.

I see what you mean, and we may be saying the same thing. :-) Again,
it's a hard concept to put into words.

 Bo> I understand your explanation, but I consider it immoral.  Much in the
 Bo> same way I understant the argument for eternal damnation in hell, but
 Bo> consider it immoral
 Bo> and beastly.  If God is the only one who can meaningfully implement any
 Bo> change, but still burns us for eternity, then he is a monster.  But as
 Bo> I think its just a creation of tribal desert Jews, to me, the only
 Bo> thing this reveals is the poor
 Bo> morality of some Christians.

Have you considered that hell is a choice? If someone says, "I don't 
want to have anything to do with a God that would do this" is 
basically getting their wish?

Or to put it another way, God loves you enough to allow you to
decide to follow Him or not - He doesn't force it either one
way or another.

We all sin, and evil has to be judged for there to be justice.
Jesus took the punishment for us, but the punishment was still
taken.


.... Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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