X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: f996b,388d8b3ef2bf38fb X-Google-Attributes: gidf996b,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-06-30 05:22:50 PST From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.ascii-art Subject: Re: karl marx and the communist manifesto Date: 30 Jun 2003 14:21:50 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 109 Message-ID: <6usmpr7o2p.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <54500FC4F4D2D611A5B00020AFF88A0517F78E@proliant.tsd-ltd.demon.co.uk> <54500FC4F4D2D611A5B00020AFF88A0517F79A@proliant.tsd-ltd.demon.co.uk> <6t5sfvgmafsgb5212p7mlqik47pq7q6ppq@ac.ce.13.16.cabalnet.net> X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jun 2003 12:21:52 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-22-103.via-eth.ch X-Trace: pfaff.ethz.ch 1056975764 dhcp-22-103.via-eth.ch (30 Jun 2003 14:22:44 +0200) Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!surfnet.nl!seven.news.surf.net!irazu.switch.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.ascii-art:23929 "Anonymous" writes: > Dewight Fry wrote in message <6t5sfvgmafsgb5212p7mlqik47pq7q6ppq@ac.ce.13.16.cabalnet.net>... > > >I found your pic to be a real yawner. Who gives a crap about Marx and > >his assinine political theories? Communism sucks, d00d! > > I'm not a Marxist - I just appreciate good art (which this quite > obviously is). Anyway an interesting picture and technique. > You're forgetting what Communism is all about - the basic principle was > that all mankind was created equal, so everyone should have equal > wealth and property. Which runs us into the problem that people are not created equal (ever compared an genius and an retard?) and also people work different amounts (hardworking vs lazy). So they neither can achieve by themselves, nor do deserve equal wealth or property. > The problem with Communism was the greed of certain people. It that were the only problem, it would have worked. Try some of the real problems that killed it of: 1. Lenin deliberately refused to follow the rules layed out by Marx, because he was not prepared to wait (until after his lifetime). Marx _clearly_ states, that for communism to work the way he envisioned it, one _first_ must have an capitalist system that has run its course. "run its course" in Marxian terms means, when it has grown so far that no further growth is possible (no one wants to buy more), so competition only results in pricecutting (and less pay, so less buying -> permanent recession) and mergers that eliminate competition (so only monopolist, then price gouging). One could argue, that the west has reached that state in the last 30 years. But Lenin tried to step directly from an agrarian feudal society of scarcity to communism. Marx would have predicted Lenins faillure. 2. Forgetting or not knowing the importance of motivation. Even when production exceeds demand, and so work time drops, there is still need for some to go working. They need an reason to spend their time this way, instead of doing nothing, like all the rest of the people. Today we know from modern biology, that the only known reliable motivator is to reward people with something they would have not be able to get without the work. That seems to be either more pay (and so more wealth, end of the "equal wealth" bit) or political power to push others around (but that gives political power fights, suppression, suffering). Result of this was the "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" Problem. Too little being produced, salaries which you can't buy stoff with, because the shelves are empty. Demotivation. Evenless stuff on the shelves. Gave an vicious circle that killed the economy. 3. Not knowing about information flow problems The actual Sovietunion was based on central planning. This may strictly not be Marx, but annother Lenin missdesign. Unfortunately it doesn't work either. Planning is never precise enough. So one needs to watch the outcome and correct the plans (no plan is even worse, but ridgid plans are also bad). The Soviet 5 year plans were definitely not flexible enough. Even worse, an central system makes such feedback unreliable. Then add above part about political power and all the planning positions get quickly filled with those that want to reward themselves (and because stuff is scarse they have an desire to get more than average). Then come the political battles. And that kills as ist first victim any form of reliable information flow, so the system loses its ability to correct itsself. > Communism was good on paper, but in practise it never worked. It was an not even a particularly good target. And it was badly implemented. And it could not work, so far we know today. Some of this stuff Marx simply could not have known (motivational biology and information frow analysis). > As I said, I'm not a Marxist (I prefer the semi-democratic state that I > live in). But I like the art form. Today we know that preventing poverty (through todays social security) and all its negative side effects is about the best that is attainable. Although the highly bureaucratic implementations in use today are also unnecessarily complex and as result of this unreliable. And the costcutters are trying their best do destroy even this. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today?