X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: f996b,b217f9de36ff9682 X-Google-Attributes: gidf996b,public From: Matthew Thomas Subject: Re: Time for a new FAQ? (LONG; also Re: others' suggestions) Date: 1997/11/04 Message-ID: <345DC0E1.6385@spamfree.land> X-Deja-AN: 286747694 References: <345C0907.165F@spamfree.land> <63jt77$9h0$2@mnementh.southern.co.nz> Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, NZ (opinions expressed are my own) Newsgroups: alt.ascii-art Thanks Colin Douthwaite, Veronica Karlsson, llizard, Joan Stark, and Andreas Freise for your comments and suggestions. I'll wait a few days for more suggestions to come in, and then have a go at a revised version. In the meantime, some of your comments which I'd like to reply to are set out below. But first, Veronika Karlsson was rightly incredulous at what I was doing: > ... > Hi there yourself... that was one loooooong first ever post... (a > record?) Well that wasn't my primary goal, and it was *nothing* in comparison with your reply! Phwarrr! :-) ... > > So, over the past few weeks I've had a go at doing a new FAQ myself, > > "this is my first post ever" and "I wrote a new FAQ" in the same > post!? Prepare to be torn to pieces! :D:D:D:D:D:D I *knew* someone was going to say that! Oh well ... :-) Secondly, everyone has different ideas about what the subject of the FAQ message should be. llizard wrote: > "FAQs: So you're new to ascii-art..." and (in a different message): > *NEW* TO ASCII-ART? READ ME (FAQ) Joan wrote: > ASCII ART FAQ-1997-please read Something to think about. Next, Veronica wrote: > > > > In addition, some of what [the current FAQs] say is a bit > > out-of-date or idiosyncratic (how to use gopher and lynx, and > > relying on scrolling newsreaders for animations, for example), > > As we have also seen recently the scrolling animations aren't _that_ > outdated and I know from my own experience that lynx is everything but > outdated ... > and it is definitely very well suited for ascii art. Er, those came under the heading of idiosyncratic, not out-dated. lynx is useful (yes, I use it occasionally) BUT it is fair to say that the great (great as in large, not great as in intelligent :-) majority of Netizens use browsers other than lynx, and use newsreaders which do not scroll messages up as they are loaded (which is a requirement for scrolling animations, isn't it?) ... > > [`Welcome to alt.ascii-art' heading] llizard wrote: > > I like the Welcome sign, but because the post is already quite long > and people are often reluctant to download long posts, I suggest you > use a smaller font. > (I've used my diddled version of one of Joan Stark's fonts here.) > __ _, > (-| | | _ | _ _ ,_ _ _ -|-_ _ |-|- _ _ _ . . _ ,_-|- > _|_|_|(/_|(_(_)| | |(/_ |(_) (_|| |.(_|_)(_ | |.(_|| | > ( Yes, good point, although llizard's one is a *bit* hard to read. Anyone want to do a dazzling (but smaller) freehand-style heading, or suggest a better Figlet font choice? Veronica wrote: ... > > NOTE: If you are new to Usenet News, please read the messages in > > news:news.announce.newusers before posting to any newsgroups. > > Thanks. > > Did you? Did anybody? Er, yes. Netscape News has its faults (this is the second time I'm writing this message, for one, because it crashed on me the first time), but one of it's better points is that it automatically subscribes you to news:news.announce.newusers, news:news.newusers.questions, and news:news.answers when you first start using it, and I *have* read them. > Personally I had read elsewhere that you should read FAQ files and > lurk for a while and see what things were like before butting in... > But when it came to reading those things, I couldn't care less, I > wanted to get out on the NET! (I suppose they may be good, but do real > people read them?) Are you trying to *encourage* bad Netiquette, or what? I don't want to think I'm a freak just because I *did* do all those things ... :-) ... > > 1 What is the alt.ascii-art newsgroup for? > > 2 What is ASCII art, and why is it used? > > Shouldn't 1 be 2 and 2 be 1 here? You start discussing what > alt.ascii-art is before you explain what ascii art is... (Five minutes later ...) A brief survey of news:news.answers reveals that of those FAQs which describe the newsgroup and its topic separately, a small majority have the newsgroup before its topic. A matter of taste, I guess. ... > > 8 Can someone do my name / these words in ASCII, please? > > 7 Can someone convert this picture to ASCII, please? > > 6 Can someone draw me a ... llizard pointed out: > ha > ^^^^%--- ha > " \ ha Is there a reason that numbers 8,7,6 are out of order? Oh, botheration (it was bound to happen somewhere, I suppose) ... , (O (Matthew slapping himself with M\ a wet bus ticket -- proverbial / \ NZ punishment for silliness) Veronica wrote: > > > > 9 Can I copy this ASCII picture? > > 10 What should I know about signature files? > > 11 What happened to rec.arts.ascii? > > 12 Where can I find more ASCII art? > > 13 Is there legal copyright problems when duplicating ASCII art? Question 9 is what seems to me to be the consensus from recent discussions in a.a-a about copyright. Would you like to suggest some more detail? > 14 How do you make ascii animatons? Since news:alt.ascii-art.animation seems to be a wasteland now (most of its traffic is spam, crosspostings from a.a-a, or llizard :-), I guess it's not worth a separate FAQ, so you have a point ... so if anyone can mail me a summary of how to do ASCII animations using scrolling techniques (as mentioned before, I think scrolling ones are newsreader-dependent) and animations using JavaScript, I'll include it (keeping in mind that the FAQ shouldn't be a multi-volume epic). > 15 How do you make coloured ascii art? Care to elaborate? The only safe, semi-standard way of doing it that I've ever seen in a.a-a is HTML, which is covered in Questions 2 and 3. > 16 Isn't a gif version better than just a "raw ascii" picture? Question 2, or do you mean something else? > 17 Does anybody have pictures of naked women/men in ascii? In my six months of reading, I don't remember this ever being *asked* for, although Meriday, your self-portrait, and TowelMan have been *posted* often enough... > 18 Some other popular requests... Like? IMHO, the FAQ shouldn't end up being a FRP (Frequently Requested Pictures) gallery as well. ... > > Types of messages which we generally enjoy seeing include: > > * look, here's an ASCII picture I drew... > > (provided it wasn't a famous eagle by Row...) Shame on us, I noticed that it was a New Zealander who tried to pull that one off ... > > * REQ: xyz (ie, has anyone got any ASCII pictures of xyz?) > > (with some exceptions...) Like? As far as I can tell, there isn't much the regulars here are afraid to have a go at. :-) ... > > Types of messages which we generally don't enjoy seeing include: ... > > * make money fast!!! ... (yawn, yawn, snore) > > As if _they_ would read an FAQ... I know, but it's the principle involved. :-) ... > > * messages with the subject `ASCII art' (not exactly informative, > > is it) > > so? Does it have it have to be? If what's _inside_ it makes sense... Well, yes, it does. Basic Netiquette -- give the reader help in deciding whether they want to download the message or not. ... > * Long discussions about pentagrams! Oh come on, I liked that thread. :-) Off-topic postings broaden the mind ... > * Meriday in the Morning (we have already seen her) Yes, but who here can honestly say that they object to seeing Meriday reposted here every once in a while? :-) ... [talking about ASCII characters] > > These characters are almost completely standard, except for a few > > slight variations on some systems. For example: > > # (hash/pound): a hash sign on most computers, a pound sign on some > > British ones > > ??? > > The one above (number 35) comes out like this: > > _|__|_ > | | > _|__|_ > | | > > The pund sign is a completely different, non-standard, character. (Am > I missing something important here, or is Matthew missing something > important here?) On some British keymaps/fonts, this character is _ / \ | -+- | /___| for obvious reasons (European Monetary Union still being some time away for them, of course). > > | (bar): a solid line on most computers, but some split it in the > > middle > > Personally I recommend using this instead of "I" or "l" since they are > less likely to look ok... > > | | > | may turn into: > | | > > ___ > | > but "I" may turn into: | > _|_ > > A dotted line looks better than one with little "thorns" on it... That's exactly what I say in Question 4. > > ^ (caret): differs in size depending on the font used > > ~ (tilde): appears in the middle of the line in some fonts, at the > > top in others > > this can be a problem! WARNING! Exactly. I might put in a bit here about using " instead of ~ for a top-of-line horizontal line. ... > WARNING! Posting pictures containing [ANSI] characters to aaa is a > sure way to get FLAMED! Why? Sure it's not a good idea, but are there any newsreaders which crumple up in terror if you use ANSI, as opposed to just displaying the pictures a bit oddly? ... > > Some e-mail programs, particularly those built in to Web browsers, > > can read and write messages in HTML (HyperText Markup Language, the > > language which Web pages are written in). HTML allows colours and > > (using JavaScript) animations in ASCII art. It IS ok to post these > > messages, since they are just plain text; but remember, most e-mail > > programs do not recognize HTML and will print all the HTML > > formatting as well as the text, making your pictures more or less > > unrecognizable. > > This is not good advice to put in a FAQ! It would be better to > encourage text-only posts since the html posts don't just turn up as > one messed-up-looking html code version in the text-only people's news > programs but as TWO versions, one html and one plain-text, in which > case the html one is totally superfluous. Usually true, although it depends on your browser settings. For instance (if I remember correctly), of Netscape Communicator 4's three options (send as HTML, send as plain text, send as both) the default is unfortunately the first one. > Also who has the time to sit and make "pretty" little html documents > for NEWS, something that only lasts a few days (ok, much longer in > some archives, but in practice they last a few days) when the message > is of a text nature anyway?! Someone here at the University of Canterbury, for one (yti11, a couple of weeks ago). ... > > Some people look at ASCII art and shake their heads in disbelief, > > thinking `haven't these people heard of REAL graphics?'. > > HEY! WAIT A MINUTE! Time for a new headline here? Hmmm, possibly. ... > I have heard that there are some silly people who think > monospaced fonts look ugly and have thrown all of those out of their > computers to gain memory, I have also heard that there are some > _really_ stupid computer makers who think the same thing and don't put > any monospaced fonts in them to begin with... (these are rumours, I > don't know if they are true but they don't sound _too_ impossible... I don't believe it. A Macintosh, possibly, if Monaco is deleted. But a PC will always have Terminal (for DOS programs etc), an Amiga will always have Topaz, and so on. > I _know_ that it can be true for individual programs...) :( See Question 4. > > * an ASCII art picture is literally hundreds of times smaller than > > its GIF or BMP counterpart, while still giving a reasonable > > level of detail > > You will have to give some more thorough explanation about this! There > are so many WYSIWYG people out there who want to measure the size of > an image in inches rather than bytes. These people will think that > this argument doesn't make sense! Sure. This bit could be rewritten, I guess ... ... > > * Make sure you are using a fixed-width font to view messages with > > -- one where all characters are the same width (like on a > > typewriter). ... > How about mentioning the names of a bunch of common monospaced fonts > here... Yes, I'll move the font stuff from Question 4 to here, since this part comes first. ... > Wrapping is a problem when you SEND pictures! The "wrap long lines" > thing in some versions of Netscape has to do with SENDING posts! As I wrote: yes, some of the time. I have Netscape's View / Wrap Long Lines turned on when *viewing*, so I don't have to scroll forever to read a paragraph from someone who had it turned off when *sending*. But when I go to look at pictures, I need to turn it back off again, otherwise they get wrapped to oblivion. But ... > If a picture is already wrapped by the sender it won't matter how much > I try to click on that option, nothing is going to happen. > Also some news programs wrap _incoming_ messages as well as outgoing > messages. Learn how _your_ program works, but do that in alt.test, not > aaa! ... that's also true. ... > > * If there are a lot of < and > symbols in the picture, with words > > like HTML, FONT COLOR, B, I, and so on inside them, then the > > picture has been done in HTML (see Question 2), and your > > newsreader does not understand HTML (most don't). > > Is this very common? (now you see why I recommend NOT writing mail and > news messages in html) Not right now, but I'm sure it will become more so (unfortunately) in the next year or so as the HTML-defaulting mail programs become more widely used. ... > > 4 How do I start drawing ASCII art? > > ===================================== > > > > ASCII art can be drawn using any text editor, such as the Windows or > > Macintosh Notepads, any of the various Emacs editors, BEd or AZ on > > the Amiga, and so on. (Using a word processor to draw ASCII art is > > like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut -- it can be done, but > > it is difficult to do properly.) > > how about "edit" in DOS... Ok, I'll stick that in. (I'm not that knowledgable about DOS, nor do I have any desire to be. :-) > Yes, you _can_ use a word processor to draw ascii art! No it is not > "like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut"! Word processors can > have some sophisticated little functions that make them much more > suitable to draw ascii images with (such as "replace", which most > editors probably have too... Maybe I was a little over the top there. But generally, an editor has more of those character-based features than a word processor, and it doesn't keep saying `this file contains formatting which cannot be saved in Text format; are you sure you want to close without saving the formatting?' etc. ... [An overtype function is useful] > Usually accomplished by pushing the "insert" key! Whoops, forgot to mention that. :-) But I was surprised when Joan wrote: > > I have one comment though... I have to object that the overtype mode > is better. I like to keep the characters there and manually move them > around until the picture looks right. I'd rather insert spaces and > move a character than to type over it. Am I the only one using this > method- or is everyone else using the overtype? Now this seems to me to be incredibly labour-intensive, but who am I to argue with the Queen of ASCII herself? Especially since Veronica replied: > > I _can_ set emacs to use a kind of overtype-like mode but I prefer the > "normal" mode... :) Veronica wrote: > ... [discussion about copy and paste] > (hmmm... how about some instructions for that... for the most common > types of computers...) I don't think so. (1) There are SO many different systems out there, and as I said, the FAQ shouldn't be an epic; (2) copy and paste is usually pretty easy to figure out anyway. ... > > DON'T try to post pictures drawn in a proportional-width (ie > > non-fixed- width) font: even if you specify the exact font you used, > > the chances of other people being able to read it are pretty slim > > (even `standard' proportional fonts such as Times New Roman can vary > > in width from computer to computer). > > BIIIIIIIIG RED BLINKING TEXT HERE!!! Using HTML? :-) ... > > if you're using a sans serif font, just remember to use the vertical > > bar (|, above \ on most keyboards) > > (The vertical bar sits on the same button as < and > on _my_ > keyboard... > NOT EVERYBODY ON THE NET IS AMERICAN! OR "ANGLIFIED" IN SOME OTHER > WAY!) I said most, and most is correct. Calm down. 3-) ... > > Once you've chosen your font, prepare your canvas. Type a row of > > spaces for however wide you want your picture. Copy this row and > > paste it for however many rows high you think your art will get. > > Then turn overtype on, stick your cursor somewhere in the middle, > > and you're ready to draw ... > > I don't agree! With this technique it is very easy to get extra > unnecessary spaces at the end of the lines which may cause > "mysterious" wrapping when the image is posted! (and it is so easy to > forget to look for them and remove them when the picture is made... Not if you have overtype on right from the beginning, surely? ... > > As you gain confidence, your pictures will start getting larger. > > Not necessarily true. Drawing small pictures is a challenge and can be > quite difficult while drawing bigger pictures requires less exactness > and can be easier to start with... And llizard wrote: > -- > ___ ha > _/ | ,^%--- ha Hey!! As I gained confidence, my > |_____| __<_ \ ha pictures didn't get larger.... > --- == >/ > [_____] __>,^ llizard aka ejm [..........................] > ejm97| | //| | http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/9334/ Sorry. That's the way it worked for me, and I guess I'm guilty of assuming that it worked that way for everyone else too. Veronica continued: ... > > The things which give beginning ASCII artists the most trouble are > > usually diagonal lines and circles. Here are some lines of various > > angles: ... > Here's a collection I made once (and if anybody can come up with > _good_ lines for slopes > 1/1 please tell me!!!) > > 3/1 2/1 1/1 2/3 1/2 > | | / / .' .' > | | | / / .' > | / / / .' .' 1/3 > | | | / / .' .-' > | | / / .' .' .-' > | / | / / .' .-' 1/4 > | | / / .' .' .-' _.-' > | | | / / .' .-' _.-' 1/5 > | / / / .' .' .-' _.-' _.--' > | | | / / .' .-' _.-' _.--' 1/6 > | | / / .' .' .-' _.-' _.--' __.--' 1/7 > | | | / / .' .-' _.-' _.--' __.--' __..--' > _.-' _.--' __.--' __..--' 1/8 > _.--' __.--' __..--' __..--'' > __.--' __..--' __..--'' > __..--' __..--'' > __..--'' > -------------------------- 0 Ooh yes, much better! (Although, depending on whether or not your comma is north/south or northeast/southwest, ,' ,' is probably better than your .' .' .) ... > > And here are a few circles of various sizes: ... > ... [after which Veronica included a LOT of good and not-so-good circles] > I'll put some of those in. ... > Figlet is _the_only_good_ascii_art_program_! That is, Figlet is the > only ascii art program that can produce result just as good as a human > artist can! It is very easy to use and most of the time when you want > to do text there is absolutely no reason not to use it! FIGLET IS > GOOD! FIGLET IS FUN! TRY IT! That was a party political broadcast from the Figlet Lovers' Advocacy Party (FLAP) ... :-D ... > > 7 Can someone convert this picture to ASCII, please? > > ====================================================== > > > > Probably not, for the same reason as question 6: there is a computer > > program that does it. Well actually, several programs, with names > > like ascgif, gifa, gifscii, and gif2ascii. Do a Web search for any > > of these programs to find places where you can download them. Now I seem to have tripped up badly here. Veronica wrote: > > I disagree! You are confusing two questions here: > > 7a: Can somebody tell me where to find a gif-to-ascii converter? > > 7b: Can somebody draw an ascii version of this picture? > > (there is a difference!) > > I strongly suggest that you don't put your answer quite the way you > did! It looks as if you _recommend_ using those programs... (I assume > that you do not!) The first question should be answered by giving a > couple of URLs and a comment saying that THE RESULT OF THOSE PROGRAMS > USUALLY SUCKS! The second question is welcome to the group and often > seen as a challenge, certainly not as an insult, since it clearly > shows that the person in question has understood that in this case the > computer just isn't up to it... And llizard wrote: > > I think that question #7 can be answered a little differently. I have > converted (if I can use that term) gifs by looking at them. I have > never used any of those programs (brrr... too hard). Instead of your > answer of "probably not", which is just too frustrating for a new > person to see, I'd like to see an instruction for the person to state > the URL where the picture is located. (example: "Can someone convert > this picture which is at: http://fillintherestoftheURLhere ") along > with an instruction that it should be the URL for *just* the picture, > not the whole page. (example: "Right click on the picture you want > converted; left click on [View Image]; copy the URL of the picture > only.") Consider it done. Can anyone give me the URLs of the convertors' home pages, to start with? Veronica continued: ... > > 10 What should I know about signature files? > > ============================================= ... > > A signature file (or sig for short) is a small text file which an > > e-mail program adds to the end of every e-mail you send -- the > > equivalent of a letterhead for dead-tree (paper) mail. Usually it > > contains little more than the person's name, organization, and > > e-mail address, and an inspirational quote of some sort: but some > > people like to incorporate ASCII art into their signature files as > > well. > > (how about a link to some page with lots of examples here...?) Can you suggest an URL? ... > > no-one will complain if your signature file is four lines long or > > fewer -- and it is quite possible to do a reasonably good ASCII > > picture which is that small. > > It is quite possible, but also quite difficult, to do some bloody good > ascii art that is that small! > > Here are a couple of examples (most of them NOT made by me): ... [There followed not a couple, but a gazillion examples ...] Have you collected these on a Web page? ... > > 12 Where can I find more ASCII art? > > ==================================== > > > > Lots of ASCII artists put up libraries of their own and others' > > ASCII art on their Web sites. Do a Web search for `ascii art', or > > see > > http://www.yahoo.com/Arts/Visual_Arts/Computer_Generated/ASCII_Art/. > > If you don't have Web access, well, just read this newsgroup! :-) I have to admit I was a bit tired by the time I wrote this section, so didn't include as much as I should have. Following Veronica's and Andreas's suggestions, I'll include: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2695/links.htm http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/8608/ http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/. Any suggestions of others (that aren't going to disappear in the near future)? Colin concluded: > > I think we should post your new FAQ regularly to alt.ascii-art and > alt.ascii-art.animation newsgroups and give the old FAQs ( still > valuable ) a rest...perhaps posting the oldies quarterly ? > > Daniel Au's Tutorial is probably still worth posting regularly in > addition to the FAQ because it has direct impact and shows very > clearly how to construct a first picture. > > I'm uncertain about dropping the WARNING notice on Control Codes > because historically that posting has produced more reaction than > any of the other items I have posted regularly. I'd agree with all of that. And finally, just to prove that I actually do some ASCII art (not just FAQs :-), and to give you an idea of what I look like (in case you haven't been to my home page), here's a self-portrait mugshot: ,a@@@@@@@@@m. ,@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@. J@@P':.. ..:`W@ @@@':;;.. ..;;::@) \@!:<@#@>::<@#@>.@ |.::"??"; `???.:"\ `._::..:_ee_...::_/ \:..______,::/ \::.. ...:/ MT-3 `-:____:-' Bye for now ... -- __ /\_\ Matthew Thomas, who was thrown into the Avon River today _\/_/_ My real address is mpt26 @ student dot canterbury dot ac dot nz /\_\/\_\ http://kiwipages.co.nz/matthew.html \/_/\/_/ PS: Veronica, sorry for spelling you `Veronika' before :-(