X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: f996b,32452b2fbd2fbc6c X-Google-Attributes: gidf996b,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 1994-05-20 08:24:42 PST Path: gmd.de!nntp.gmd.de!xlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!emory!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!tfore From: tfore@st6000.sct.edu (Troy Fore) Newsgroups: alt.ascii-art Subject: Re: moderation-YUK Date: 20 May 1994 15:15:49 GMT Organization: University System of Georgia (PeachNet) Lines: 222 Message-ID: <2rik75$mdg@news-feed-2.PeachNet.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: st6000.sct.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] On Fri, 20 May 1994 04:37:15 -0400, Andre Beskrowni wrote: > Hi everyone: Hi! > All I keep hearing is that moderation is good because we won't have to > see the same requests over and over, blah, blah, blah. All I keep hearing is that moderation is evil because there is the slight possibility that maybe perhaps someone's post might not make it on the group, or whatever, blah, blah, blah. > Something everyone should keep in mind though (and maybe some one has > already said this since I don't read EVERY post on this issue) is that > everyone has had an opportunity to voice their opinions about where the > future of this newsgroup should be: alt or rec. Alt OR Rec? Alt OR Rec?? No one is saying Alt OR Rec. NO ONE WILL BE DELETING ALT.ASCII-ART JUST TO MAKE ROOM FOR REC.ASCII-ART. Jesus. You people who have such a problem with moderation just stick to a.a-a. > First of all, it could easily be claimed (by a moderator for instance) > that the same thing is being said over and over again. "Fine," you > might say, "the same thing _is_ being said over and over again and this > is a prime example of why moderation is good." This is totally wrong! > The reason there are so many posts on this issue is because so many > people feel so strongly about it. This issue very important. Uh, what? You lost me. Scarecrow won't just delete a discussion because it is getting repetitive. The only posts that he would want redirected are the ones that are a) off topic (make money fast! Green card lotto) and b) so common that there are faqs and files that would assist (may I have a faq? I need an ascii of "I Love You/Happy/Birthday/Calvin&Hobbes/ Barney/etc.etc.etc." that we see every damned day. A moderater like scarecrow would be doing EVERYONE a service, by e-mailing the person who made that request DIRECTLY with a pre-made file of those more common requested pics and keeping them off the group. Scarecrow simply wants to perform a service, not CENSOR anybody. The only people I could understand him censoring is people like you who'd probably get on there and bitch because it's moderated. ;> BTW, I'm not so sure "so many" people feel the way you do. Just seems to be an anonymous guy and Colin -- who has started a one-man war with the idea. > Do you > really want to risk the possibility that you might not be able to speak > up on issues like this? Not AFTER the point. If the votes are in, a moderated group is wanted and made, NO, I wouldn't want to see a bunch of posts complaining after the fact. > It's not necessarily a bad thing that there > have been so many posts saying the basically the same thing. It gives > everyone who reads this newsgroup a feeling for how everyone else feels. > Under moderation, we might have only seen half of these posts, or maybe > none at all. It would be impossible to gauge your opinion in relation > to everyone else's. I personally don't want my agenda set for me. I > want to know my what everyone else's feelings are. Discussion is a good > thing, especially for an arts forum. I don't think anyone would want > their voice restricted due to a moderator's whim. Well, honestly, you'll just have to deal with it. This isn't an anarchy with no order. You can't simply talk about whatever you want, moderator or no. Discussion is a good thing, especially for an arts forum, but ONLY if the discussion is about art. Discussions about government politics is a BAD thing, especially for an arts forum. Take it somewhere else, I don't want to see it -- regardless if the fact that someone wants to say it. It doesn't belong. > The second conflict that all this discussion would have with a moderated > newsgroup is the amount of attention it has taken from the real purpose > of this newsgroup, which one would assume would be to view, distribute, > promote, etc., ascii-art. Issues like this could easily be snuffed out > because of their supposed irrelevance. Your first sentence made absolutely no sense to me. You're saying you don't want a moderated group because it would keep you from being able to discuss a moderated news group?? Who cares. If I understand your sentence right, you mean it might be ditched because it's not ascii art. Well, I doubt it, but even if it were, it'd be right. Come on, it's not as if you can't e-mail. This is SUPPOSED to be ascii-art. This crap we're talking about IS off topic, but it DOES affect the channel, so it's ok. I'm sure Scarecrow agrees. > But I think that just by looking > at the response that this issue has generated illustrates that most of > us don't see this as an irrelevant issue. Check the names of all these posts and you'll find most of them generated by one person -- Colin. The pro-r.a-a people seem to have more widespread approval, but Colin is quite avid in his attacks. I'm not saying that there aren't those who disagree, I'm just saying that one person's numerous posts shouldn't be mistaken for "most of us." > However in a moderated > newsgroup, this is not for us to decide. What? In moderated news groups it's not for us to decide if we want moderated news groups??? Well, I think I see what you're trying to say. You're being justifiably paranoid. But, I think Scarecrow has enough sense to know that a topic that isn't ON-topic but affects the channel should be let through. I don't see him putting much effort into censorship -- it'd be too much work, and no fun, and Scarecrow is a fun guy. > Here, if we think some topic > merits discussion, we discuss it. In rec groups, we might want to bring > up an item for discussion only to find that we aren't allowed because we > are not keeping to the strict bounds that might be imposed by a > moderator. The only bounds that would/should be imposed are those set in the charter and repeatedly mentioned here. *sigh* > How, then, would we be able to propose changes to the > structure of a group? What if things were being run poorly and we > wanted to address those problems? If, god forbid, this happened, which I don't think it would, there's still e-mail! Jesus, come on, people. This isn't some parent restricting your social life. E-mail the others in the group, and figure out what to do. > I think that is putting a lot of > faith in one human being. "A lot of faith"? Uhh, it's just a newsgroup. I'm not letting him hold the rope as I climb down a cliff. However, to moderate r.a-a, yes I do have faith in Bob Allison. I think it says a lot about HIS character. > Rec groups often forbid this kind of > discussion, why would anyone want that? Because it's off topic? Because as long as I'm getting all the ascii-art I want then it's doing its job? > Just to not have to deal with > seeing repeated requests? Geez, just skip 'em. No one is making you > read them. No, but repeat requests from different people can get ignored. 5 guys on the left asking for a pic of Calvin and Hobbes may get answered, but the 2 guys on the right who also asked might have been missed in the numerous posts. > These two problems are also accompanied by the strain that this puts on > the moderator. He has to take the time to read everything, and make > decisions about their fate. This is not a small task, especially with > the number of posts that appear here daily. It's definitely a > responsibility that one could tire of very quickly. I don't want to > get too much into this topic though since it's been done. Yes, and that's why I don't see Bob doing much in the matter of reading everything and making some weighty decision for every one. > All I'm saying is that this IS NOT a "win-win" situation. True, things > could work out fine, but I'd rather not chance it. I'd rather not take > the chance that it could end up really sucking and undermining the > promotion of ascii-art due to the potential strictness of moderation. It may be win-win, it may be lose-lose. If it's win-win, GREAT! If not, just stick with a.a-a. E-mail others and see if you want something done. Just deal with it. You people are just arguing against the CONCEPT of a moderator. > By the way, before you even think it, these opinions have nothing to due > with Scarecrow's character. I believe that he is fully capable of doing > the job. I say this even though I don't know the guy at all. I know, because you are arguing against a concept. It's like arguing with your roommate because he wants to have control over his own bedroom because you think it is "territorial." Ok, so I'm bad with analogies. > I honestly believe that he wants to moderate the proposed rec group > because he loves ascii-art and wants do what he can to promote it. (I > don't buy the line about self-promotion.) Nevertheless, he going to be > subjected to a hell of a lot of complaints about what gets posted and > what doesn't get posted, and these are going to make some not-so-easy > decisons even harder for him. I doubt it. You admitted to not knowing him. Why not ASK him how he'd react? He strikes me as the type that would just back off and give freer rein. > I really encourage you to think about how much of a voice you'll have > under moderation. You may feel secure, but why? You are putting > yourself at risk of losing your voice completely. Moderation sucks. Blind dislike of an abstract concept sucks, but is perhaps justifiable. Any problem with giving something/somebody a CHANCE? > It's about more than cutting down on repeated requests. Ask Scarecrow what HE thinks it's about, rather than you just guess what YOU think he thinks it's about. > Vote for a free > ascii-arts group. Uhhh, *pssst*, I don't know if you've noticed, but, look around you... YOU'RE IN ONE. > (Sorry for being so long-winded.) S'okay! So am I! :) /> \/< Troy Fore -{\\\\\\(*):::<===========================================- /\< tfore@st6000.sct.edu \> "The body should be triangular, the mind circular. The triangle represents the generation of energy and is the most stable physical posture. The circle symbolizes serenity and perfection, the source of unlimited techniques. The square stands for solidity, the basis of applied control." -- Morihei Ueshiba, The Art of Peace