/* Written 1:51 am Sep 17, 1993 by pnews in igc:p.news */ /* ---------- "PNEWS ONLINE [Sept 16]" ---------- */ PNEWS [September 16, 1993] _ _ ________|_|_________________________|_|________ | | | PNEWS ONLINE/a compilation of excerpts | | from various pnews conferences. | | There are 5 pnews conferences, P_news | | on FidoNet [2 years on the zone 1 backbone. | | Ask your sysop to get it for you.], | | pnews-L and pnews.d-L on InterNet [To | | subscribe, send request to: | | , and there is | | p.news and p.news.discuss on PeaceNet. | | [To subscribe to PeaceNet, call: | | (415) 442-0220] | |_______________________________________________| | | | | | | | | _| |__ _| |__ / |_| /| / |_| /| |~~~~~|/` |~~~~~|/` `~~~~~` `~~~~~` ".....opposing views will also be welcomed, provided.... simple guidelines are adhered to and an exchange of ideas is freely given and accepted, whereby all parties thereto--do so with mutual respect for their differing views...." These conferences provide an alternative for those who are interested in "progressive" issues. The object of the conferences are to provide a cross-fertilization of ALTERNATIVE "progressive" and dissident views---to propose and discuss new world visions, to present ideas that challenge prevailing dominant views; and to advance the cause of PEACEFUL RESOLUTION of matters that greatly concern us. The primary emphasis for the conferences shall continue to be the presentation of "progressive news, views, and occasionally some poetry." Progressive meaning that which tends to improve society, the advancement of knowledge and visions for a better future. Hank Roth, Moderator/facilitator [pnews conferences] & PNEWS ONLINE ################################################### "Just as we distinguish in private life between what a man thinks and says about himself and what he really is and does, everyone has learned to distinguish the rhetoric and the messianic pretensions of political parties from their organization and real interests; what they think they are, from what they are. A man's illusions about himself and others are not basically different from the illusions which groups, classes and parties cultivate about themselves and in themselves. Indeed they come from the same source: the dominant ideas, which are the ideas of the dominant class, even if they take an antagonistic form.: [Raoul Vaneigem, THE REVOLUTION OF EVERYDAY LIFE] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prisoner of War Little Miguel is a P.O.W. In a combat zone in Inner City, U.S.A. His father was killed in a dock accident His mother works as a cleaning lady, And Miguel is left with Rosita, age 10, His mother pro tem on weekdays. Most of the shots are heard at night As drug lords vie for fertile turf Amid the vermin and the rats who inhabit public housing, Not to mention some of the political offices uptown. Little Miguel has not received his shots To ward off scarlet fever or whooping cough Or other childhood illnesses. That money has been allocated elsewhere For a pair of combat boots in Saudi Arabia, far away. Funds for his education have been diverted To a cover for one huge gun on a battleship, And the trigger for one guided missile Has absorbed the help that he might have obtained For decent nutrition through his childhood. Miguel's problems do not concern the Big Brass Who look askance at the underclass That they have created. Basically, Miguel's misfortune lies in the fact that he is not covered By the Geneva Convention. by Bernard Forer (Previously published in the San Fernando Poetry Journal,Vol. XIII, #4 and posted to pnews conferences with permission.) ################################################ From: Trond Andresen "And, on the relationship between the "correct line" and the situation in the party: My analysis is that a "Leninist" party with certainty will lose the ability to hammer out a "correct line" on most issues when both inner-party democracy and democracy in general fail....." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: zodiac@io.org (Zodiac) "The need to at least equal capitalist production is a fundamental of any realistic socialism. Without it, you are fucked in the longrun, not for some silly reason called "economic determinism", but for the logical reason that the opponent's military machine will be superior, and, barring out-right conflict, an arms race actually _cures_ the overproduction crises which regularly plague capitalist economies. On the other hand, an arms race damages the development of the economically weaker "socialist" state." [Quoting Doug Henwood's article on NSC-68 in the summer 1992 _CovertAction_Information_Bulletin_, entitled "The U.S. Economy: The Enemy Within" Zodiac writes:] "After 40 years of scheming, Washington's Cold Warriors finally got their way. The USSR is gone, and the Third World is under the management of the IMF, the World Bank, and the General Agreement of Tariffs and Trade (GATT)...." [...] "... several themes recur throughout the rambling memo [NSC-68]. One is a variation on the comparative economists' classic formulation that the characteristic crisis of the Soviet-style economy was shortage, while that of the advanced capitalist economies is surplus (too many goods, not enough money in the right hands). Or, as NSC-68 put it, there were "grounds for predicting that the United States and other free nations [read: capitalist nations] will, within a period of a few years at most, experience a decline ineconomic activity of serious proportions" without government intervention." "If a dynamic expansion of the economy were chieved," the memo suggested, "the necessary buildup could be accomplished without a decrease in the national standard of living." [...] "The arms buildup, then, could help solve, in ideologically convenient terms, the characteristic crisis of U.S.-style capitalism. But an arms buildup would hurt the USSR which was already "being drawn upon close to the maximum possible extent" -- thereby leaving it even more vulnerable to its characteristic crisis, that of chronic shortage." "....NSC-68 points out.... the reason an economically inferior nation cannot normally survive long against a power capitalist juggernaut. It is a practical demonstration of why "will and good wishes" cannot alone survive in the struggles between forms of human society..." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: "GROVER FURR" "....I disagree that a communist state has to be economically stronger than a capitalist one. This means I disagree with the whole thrust of your argument (I have read NSC-68, when it was first published in the Naval Institute Review back in the '70s, I believe). This argument is deterministic to the extreme...." "I think 'socialism in one country' is inevitable, good, and any other position is defeatist. EXCEPT ---[...].... Socialism retains too many elements of capitalist inequality. ..." ".... I am extremely critical of Comrade Stalin (of Trotsky too, of course, but I put him in another category altogether, not because of his opinions, but because of his dishonesty). .... But I prefer to be critical of Stalin for the things he ACTUALLY DID than for what he did not actually do, like the stuff Conquest et al. write about, and that is accepted as "fact" by groups who would protest if called "anti-communist", but who do not hesitate to drink from the poisoned well of capitalist disinformation." "....Anybody who believes that the revolution has to come EVERYWHERE before communism can be established ANYWHERE is a defeatist, no matter what words he/she uses to mask this defeatism.....Anybody who believes that communism has to come in an advanced industrial society (or many of them) before it can come to more backward areas is an economic determinist. Naturally, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, and even the left of the party, believed this to varying extents. Stalin and the other leaders associated with him were on the left of this tendency, but they still believed it. It's all wrong...." ....I think that many non-Leninists and many self-styled Leninists, too, have accepted a bourgeois definition of democracy. Workers' Councils, multi-party systems, factions, fractions, and tendencies, have nothing to do with guaranteeing democracy. Voting must play a role -- but NO SYSTEM OF VOTING GUARANTEES THAT THE WORKERS WILL CONTINUE TO HOLD STATE POWER. It is the bourgeoisie, throughout its history, that has made a fetish out of "the vote," i.e. to use bourgeois social-science language, the "inputs" rather than the "outputs." It is the virtue of Lenin's concept of democratic centralism that it goes to the heart of the matter...." "....The "masses" are not to the "left" of the party; the party must be to the left of the masses. If it isn't, what's all the talk about? Nobody needs it; they need one that IS, and ought to set about forming it. Now that, in theory, it is formed (as it was in Russia and China in reality), is ought to be the most class-conscious workers (and others), the staunchest in fighting for revolution, against racism, for communism, etc. Those who state that the party, once the revolution is made, should give in in the name of "democracy" (??) if some workers vote for, say, a racist policy, are abandoning the REALITY of democracy to preserve the bourgeois FORM...." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Jim Devine "...By the way, if "communism" is identified with countries that have one-party dictatorial governments and state ownership of the means of production, I guess I'm an "anti-communist." But if "communism" refers to the collective and democratic self- liberation of the working class and other oppressed groups, I am not anti-communist...." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: matt@efn.org (M G Laubach) "As a revolutionary on the grassroots level, I think the most powerful thing that I could do is help form a Labour Union at my place of work. I have an inventory job with a national company that pays low wages, has bad hours, ridiculous benchmarks in counting to meet, does not comply with state laws for giving breaks, has no health insurance or other benefits, and has stupid authoritarian rules, such as we cannot sit on the floor to count the bottom shelf. Essentially, this is unskilled slave labour. But here in Eugene, Oregon, we do not have much industry, and unemployment is high, so the businesses here get away with what they want. Another obstacle is that people tend to be afraid for their jobs for whatever reasons....." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Sean Purdy "..... We in the IS tendency believe in the necessity of a revolutionary party, but unlike the ones caricatured by Grover and his debators...." We never believed the "communist states" were in any way socialist, but now the Stalinist bogey is inconsequential for our concrete work in building a socialist alternative....." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Andrew Flood "....The problem with an international list like this is it is ideal for debating out the differences between us but less useful for organising common action. True reading of say a strike there might lead us to organise a solidarity picket on a branch of the same company here and the information to be obtained from the articles list is certainly useful. But particularly at the moment when the left is so weak it is difficult to go beyond this. Hence discussion is dominated by our disagreements. In itself this is not necessarily a bad thing, it is important these are sorted out and now is always a good time to do so. At the end of the day this is what will make the difference in constructing a new society. In the meantime providing we all stay willing to work together where we agree and where it is possible then such disagreement need not impede our day to day struggles....." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Joe DeLassus [on Worldtlk] "...Because the 'market' is an irrational beast that knows no value. The market knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Darien Allen [on Worldtlk] ".... only now are people starting to realize that AIDS is not delegated to one sexual oriented group, it hits everywhere...." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: The Peace Center Coalition for Peace and Justice 8124 West Third Street Los Angeles, CA 90048 (213) 852-0578 "...the US has, for many years now, intervened in Somalia's civil war, on the side of whichever war-lord was considered "friendly" to the US; and it now seeks to kill Aidid because he will not do the US's bidding. (Remember, Aidid was the person most responsible for the over-throw of "America's friend" -- the ruthless dictator, Barre.) The US intervenes in Somalia for several reasons, including the desire of "corporate America" to obtain Somalia's phosphate and uranium deposits, and to secure another permanent military base on the African continent..." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Doug Henwood Left Business Observer 212-874-4020 ".... at least 5 US oil companies have interests in the country, [Somalia] and Conoco's HQ has served as a substitute US embassy, and their local exec (oillord?) helped direct the Marines around Mogadishu. Operation Restore Hope indeed...." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From nation@igc.apc.org [Killing for Peace] "Lest anyone accuse Israel of callous indifference to world public opinion, the following item should prove instructive: Barely twen- ty-four hours after discharging the first fusillade in its weeklong bombardment of southern Lebanon, Israel's military leadership abruptly changed the name of the campaign--which was intended to punish Hezbollah for killing five Israeli soldiers inside the strip of land known euphemistically as a "security zone"--from Opera- tion Settling Accounts to Operation Accountability. It was a subtle gesture but a telling one. The planners hoped to deflect attention from Israel's illegal occupation of sovereign Lebanese territory-- and the tit-for-tat violence that necessarily pursues uninvited ar- mies--and focus it instead on the activities of Hezbollah, whose guerrillas responded to the Israeli shelling by firing Katyusha rockets in the direction of northern Israel." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Mark Dickson Hank, why don't all you left leaning Yanks just leave the U.S. and come to Canada. Sure, we have right-wing wackos here too as well as the occvasional ripoff business person. But we also have socialized medicine, a female PM, affordable university educations, the lowest inflation in the G7, and a low crime rate. Consider ditching the U.S. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Randy Edwards Submitted: 12 Aug 93 10:30:00 [Worldtlk] "While the U.S. is the most militarily aggressive nation on earth and posseses the world's most destructive military, the U.S. people don't have to worry about the "burden" of living under the world's best health care system -- we just have to put up with living under the world's *most expensive* health care system..." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Hank Roth Something that Antonio Gramsci said, the approximate words were, "We have the pessimism of the mind, but must have the optimism of the will. We see the worst, we work against it, we work for what is freedom, what is justice, what is right. Our destiny is our future and our future depends on our doing those things. We organize, we mobilize, we speak the truth to power and the real power is in the people." ************ From: Ribaud [P_news] "The American folly..........America is a society of mercenary interlocking exploitive corporations, an electorate that is notoriously unenlightened and misinformed by a notoriously phony mass media that is responsive more to the whims and will of their commercial advertisers than they are to telling the truth. This is a nation of millions of used car salesmen, and of real estate barons who practice medicine [Doctors buy a lot of land and other riches with the money they overcharge you for healthcare.] This is a country of people with guns who have no qualms about killing anybody that doesn't look like us, talk like us or threatens to cut off our oil...." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ {From NEW LEFT REVIEW, 195/1992} [Excerpt from BRINGING MARX TO JUSTICE: AN ADDENDUM AND REJOINDER] by Norman Geras "....From the beginning Marxism was a moral doctrine embodying a passionate condemnation of the evils of capitalism, in the name of more humane values and of the commitment to fighting for a society that would realize them.....If there is no moral case for socialism, there is no case for it. If it cannot be justified in the light of a clearly articulated set of ethical principles, it cannot be justified. Socialists do not have some special, different---dialectical or whatever--way of reasoning about these things. We have to reason about what is wrong with capitalism and what might be better about socialism in just the same way as anyone else would reason about political or social alternatives: appealing to, explicating, defending or amending, normative priciples and values. "...It is clear that, from Marx and Engels on, Marxists have always seen the aboliton of exploitation as one of the main `progressive' features of the hoped-for transition from capitalist, and class, societies to a classless one. Exploitation has been seen, that is to say, as precisely an evil; a `world- historical' evil, to be fought against and overcome. But why does exploitation even matter, let alone matter so much? This cannot be satisfactorily answered without recourse to principles of distributive justice. Whatever the favoured technical meaning of exploitation may be, Marxists have habitually also counted on the common, everyday meaning of it; namely that it involves `taking unfair advantage' of people....." ###################### VVVVVVV, VVVVVVVV .VVV. ,VVVVVV, VVVVVVVV ,VVVVVV, VV. VV VV .VV VV .VV VV. VV '' VV VV' 'VV VVV. VV VVVVVVV' VVVVVV VVVVVVV VV VVVVVV VV VV VVVV. VV VV VV .VV VV VV ,, VV VV. .VV VV VVVV VV VVVVVVV.VV VV.'VVVVVV' VVVVVVVV 'VVVVVV' VV VVV VVVVVVVV .VVV. VVVVVVV, VVVVVVVV VV VV VV .VV VV. VV VV VV VV VV VVVVVV .VVVVVVV. VVVVVVV' VV VVVVVVVV VV .VV VV. VV VV. VV VV VV VVVVVVVV.VV VV.VV VV. VV VV VV /: ///:, //////:, .W. ////////:,. .WWW, ///////////::,. .WWWWWW, ////////////////::,,. .WWWWWWWWW,. ////////////////////::,,. .WWWWWWWWWWWWW,. ///////////////////////////:,. () WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW,.//////////////////////////////. / WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:,.//////////////////////////. 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(On Fidonets at 151/101) ###################################################