Interview With PKK Leader Abdullah Ocalan

In light of the contradictory reports about the aims and policies
of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), Washington based writer and
former diplomat David Korn recently submitted a list of questions
to PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan. The following are Mr. Ocalan's
preliminary remarks and his responses, translated from Turkish,
along with Korn's questions.

Ocalan: The international press and media have been manufacturing
unfair and grossly distorted views about our party. The USA plays
a significant role in promoting these negative views. The chief of
the CIA has referred to our party as a foremost international
terrorist organization. Such a portrayal of the PKK obviously does
not rely on facts but on deliberate distortions. The PKK has no
other role but to promote the demands of the Kurds for their own
national identity and national rights, as they today face genocide.
How can our resistance against this genocide be mistaken for
terrorism? The chief of the CIA should understand that we are the
victims of terrorism. The Republic of Turkey is a well known
perpetrator of genocide and of the destruction of cultures.

Korn: The international media continue for the most part to
describe the PKK as a separatist organization that seeks
independence from Turkey and the establishment of a Marxist-
Leninist state. Could you comment on this? Specifically, is
independence in fact the goal of the PKK, and is it correct to say
that Marxism-Leninism is the PKK's political doctrine?

Ocalan: It is a gross blunder to persistently regard our party as
a strictly separatist organization that aims to establish an
independent state. It is also groundless to compare the PKK to
classic Communist parties. The political and ideological
perspective of our party are not the same as those of classic
Communist parties. Were that the case, we would have disappeared
long ago.
     It is correct to say that our party from the beginning
advocated socialism, but it has been built on scientific socialism.
We are seeking to develop a socialist model specific to our nation.
I believe that Marxist socialism and the parties that embraced it
have failed to evaluate Kurdish realities, and thus they provided
Turkey with opportunities to deny the existence of the Kurdish
people. The PKK and the Kurds have suffered a lot from Marxist
socialism and communism. We have a political manifesto that is
humanistic in essence and that challenges inequality and injustice,
not only among nations but also among cultures, religions, and
genders. Our socialism is not the kind within which the rights of
individuals disappear in favor of state authority. We are dedicated
to a philosophy that is based on democracy and pluralism, not on
the power of the state. We favor a synthesis of capitalism and
socialism, an economic structure in which individuals will freely
develop to their fullest potential. We are against all ideologies
that defend absolute authority for the state at the expense of
individual freedom.
     As for the question of separatism, we do not insist on a
separate state, on the contrary, we defend a form of government
that respects our people's distinct cultural, social, political,
and economic rights. These rights can be realized under one state
just as they would be under two states. It is inappropriate in
today's political reality to conceive of forms of government as
either unitary or separatist. We live in an age within which
distinct political and social groups come together to form federal
states. Belgium is a federal state composed of two distinct
national groups. Spain is also an example, and I should also
mention the Russian Federation.
     Considering these realities, it is unrealistic for the PKK to
insist on a separate state, but it is also impossible for the PKK
to yield to a unitary state structure that is governed by the
dictates of exclusiveness, authoritarianism, and of one nation
under one state. Evidently under the influence of socialism of
Stalin and the fascism of Mussolini and Hitler, Mustafa Kemal
developed the Turkish style unitary state. You certainly know that
the Turkish state is not democratic. There is no cultural freedom
for non-Turkish groups. Turkish democracy is a sham, and it is in
reality under the control of the military junta. The Turkish
government not only disregards the human rights of the Kurdish
people but it also oppresses its own Turkish people. The PKK
struggles for democracy against such an anti-democratic government.
To refer to our struggle as separatist is to ignore reality. The
Kemalist regime has reached a point where either it will survive by
reforming itself or it will destroy itself by becoming trapped in
the narrow structure of a unitary state.
     We have often stated that we are ready to participate in any
political process that the Turkish government will undertake to
make democratic reforms. We hereby explicitly state that we do not
insist on a separate state of our own. Should the Turkish side be
open for dialogue, we can reach solutions based on the equality and
liberty of both peoples within the existing borders. It is nonsense
to see our demands as separatist in intention. We want a Spanish or
American style of federalism.

Korn: In recent years the PKK appears to have won the sympathy of
a great many Turkish Kurds, and in some cases their active support.
To what do you attribute this?

Ocalan: It is due to the fact that the PKK has emerged as an
answer, although very limited, to the historical expectations of
our people. The support of the Kurdish people is largely based on
their keen observation of the collective and individual sacrifices
for democracy and national identity that our members have made
under the most difficult circumstances. The Kurdish people have
been deceived many times in the past by pseudo-leaders. But when
they are convinced of the sacrifices of the freedom fighters, they
mobilize for them. That is what has happened. With its twenty years
of experience with strategies and tactics compatible with social
and political realities, the PKK movement has gone beyond the
earlier sectarian Kurdish revolts that were limited to traditional
alliances of tribes and religious sects and which were suppressed
within a few months. Here lies the real reason for the Kurdish
people's support for the PKK. The Kurdish people as a whole avoided
supporting regional and traditional Kurdish rebellions in the past
because they knew that these types of rebellions usually resulted
in conditions worse than the status quo. However, because they have
witnessed our ability to survive for so long without defeat, they
have given their support with incredible enthusiasm. No doubt the
people's support is essentially reinforced by the PKK's
organizational and propaganda skills, as well as by its military
successes and its ability to take appropriate tactical steps
consistent with the circumstances and to launch comprehensive peace
initiatives.

Korn: What response have you received from the Turkish government
to your calls for negotiation?

Ocalan: Unfortunately, our opponents pretend not to hear our calls.
It seems as if we were talking to a wall. I think that there is no
other regime in the world which is so inflexible. The Turkish state
has never recognized the existence of other peoples or distinct
ethnic groups within its territory. It waged wars on those ethnic
groups who demanded the same rights as the Turks themselves and, as
in the case of the Armenian extermination, served the Turkish goal
of maintaining a unitary state. Now the Turkish regime seems to be
deaf to any proposals made by us for civilized and democratic
solutions to the conflict between us. Indeed, the Turkish
government is more resolved than ever to solve the Kurdish question
by bloodshed. The Turkish government has no tolerance for the
Kurdish question. It has brutally repressed all Kurdish uprisings
in the past. Turkish President Demirel has boasted of crushing the
twenty-ninth uprising. During his visit to Chile, Demirel
vehemently denied the existence of a Kurdish question in Turkey.
     The Turkish authorities continue to ignore any just solution
to this conflict due to the mixed signals and encouragements they
receive from NATO countries. All our reform proposals have been
turned down by the Turkish government. It rejects formal or
informal dialogue even with non-armed Kurdish political
organizations.

Korn: Even supposing that the Turkish government were to agree to
a federal status for the Kurdish minority, how could such an
arrangement be made effective given the fact that very large
numbers of Kurds now live in Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, and other
large cities outside of the southeast?

Ocalan: It is true that almost half of the Kurdish population has
moved to the metropolitan areas. However, the Kurds still
constitute a majority of the population in Kurdistan proper. The
presence of such a large Kurdish population in the metropolitan
areas is because of the economic inequalities and political
repression that our people face. The infrastructure of these cities
is far from accommodating such a large migration. A solution such
as federalism could reverse this trend of outward migration from
Kurdistan. Moreover, the problem of the Kurds who stay outside of
Kurdistan can be addressed in a democratic framework.
     A federal system is necessary for historical, political, and
cultural reasons. It is erroneous to suggest that a federal system
is not suitable due to the demographic distribution of the Kurds in
Turkey. Of course, there are other alternatives, such as autonomy.
However, all the possible avenues can only be explored through
dialogue and democratic processes. We believe that constitutional
reform which will accommodate federalism is the only reasonable way
to overcome the present crisis.

Korn: Turkish spokesmen claim that last year's Turkish army
offensive dealt a serious blow to PKK military capabilities inside
Turkey. Could you comment on this claim?

Ocalan: Our military strength has been evident in our success
during the Turkish military campaign in South Kurdistan this year.
Moreover, the Turkish army is still conducting military operations
in Dersim and even in the northernmost corner of Kurdistan. Why is
there a need for such large scale operations if our military
strength was indeed broken? In fact, these are not limited
operations but acts of war; operations that depend on the support
of F-16s, helicopters, tanks, and heavy artillery are correctly
defined as wars. We have faced a middle scale war for years in both
South and North Kurdistan. As a result of our past experience and
tactical gains, our military strength has improved a great deal.
     From now on we will be able to conduct better guerrilla
warfare in addition to our political initiatives. For the first
time, we are in a position to spread our guerrilla campaign all
over Kurdistan. In a guerrilla movement, what counts is not the
quantity but the quality of units and their levels of training and
experience. We already see a substantial improvement in these
areas. The latest Turkish operations have proven to be a total
disaster for them. While our casualties number around 30, the
Turkish army has lost over 900 soldiers. Even though we are unable
to obtain a militarily advantaged position, we are far from defeat.
We can maintain this situation for many more years.

Korn: The governments of Turkey and the United States both consider
the PKK a terrorist organization. If, in your view, this is not a
correct assessment, what steps would you propose to take to correct
it?

Ocalan: In my answer to the first question, I have explained who
the real terrorists are and how they control entire Kurdish
populations with state terrorism. We have not deliberately shed the
blood of any innocent individual. However, we have no other choice
but to resist, whether by means of armed struggle or diplomacy, the
repression of our national identity and rights by the Turkish
state. Is this terrorism? If our democratic rights are assured, we
will cease armed resistance at once. But the fact is that both the
U.S. and Turkish governments do not seem to recognize our
democratic national rights. Turkish official ideology still denies
the existence of our people in Turkey and manufactures scientific
garbage to prove that the Kurds are of Turkish origin, as
demonstrated in the recent Turkish attempt to prove that Newroz,
our national festival, originated among Turkish tribes in central
Asia. Such denial of our existence is the most barbaric form of
terrorism.
     American history is full of examples of anti-colonial
resistance against Great Britain. Were your founding fathers
terrorists? Unlike your founding fathers who sought freedom from
the British crown, our political demands are not solely based on
the idea of full separation. On the contrary, we want real
democratic national identity and culture and to develop our
political and economic institutions. We struggle in Kurdistan not
only for the rights of our people but also for the rights of ethnic
Armenians, Assyrians, and Suryani-Chaldeans who also face a reign
of terror. Yes, we have a problem of terrorism in our country, but
it is Turkish state terrorism.

Korn: Turkey and others allege that the PKK finances itself through
trade in illegal narcotics. Could you comment on this allegation?

Ocalan: The Turkish government fabricated this lie in order to
cover up its own genocidal crime against our people and to justify
military measures against the PKK. Such charges first surfaced
right after the military coup of September 1980, which also marked
the escalation of military operations against the civilian
population of Kurdistan. These charges serve the desire of the
Turkish intelligence agency to cover up the sources that finance
the contra-guerrilla and death squad activities Kurdistan. The same
sources that accused us of assassinating Olaf Palme now attempt to
vilify the PKK by spreading baseless rumors of our supposed
involvement in the heroin trade. If Turkish intelligence wants,
they can close all the drug routes in one day. However, the drug
trade serves the Turkish government's aim of preventing at least
some Kurdish youth in Europe from joining the national struggle.
Likewise, they aim to control Kurdish youth in Kurdistan by
encouraging them to join religious organizations like Hizb-i-relami
Kurd, which is financed by the Turkish government as an alternative
to the PKK. We regard drug trafficking as a serious crime and
detrimental to our national goals.

Korn: To what extent is the PKK associated with, or does it give
aid to, extremist Palestinian groups that conduct terrorist
operations against Israel?

Ocalan: We had some relations with them in 1980. However, after the
Palestine Liberation Organization opened a diplomatic bureau in
Ankara in 1982, its representatives gave a cold shoulder to our
interest in maintaining the friendship between our two
organizations. Since then we have been on our own. As for Israel,
we have no hostility towards Israel. Nevertheless we know that the
Israeli and Jewish lobbyists have a significant influence on U.S.
belligerence towards us. We don't understand Israel's enthusiasm
and support for the Turkish genocide of our people.

Korn: Is it now, or has it ever been, PKK policy to attack U.S.
installations, interests, or personnel in Turkey or elsewhere?

Ocalan: Certainly not. Even several Americans who were captured
during our operations in Kurdistan were treated with respect and
released without harm. Although we have no military or political
conflict with the United States, it constantly provokes us by
providing Turkey with intelligence, military, and political support
against us. Even supposing that the U.S. is against the PKK because
of its political position, there are many other moderate Kurdish
organizations that the U.S. entirely ignores in favor of Turkish
violations of all international treaties regarding human rights. By
its support for the Turkish government in this conflict, the United
States becomes party to the genocide of the Kurdish people. It is
not the forces of darkness, like Turkey, but the forces of
democracy and human rights that deserve support.

(Translated by AKIN from Serxwebun, April 1995)