"The Society Must Be Re-Created By The People"

Interview With MRTA Militant Victor Polay

(Published in the German daily "taz" 5.6.1990; Translated by Arm
The Spirit)

     In this interview by Nina Boschmann, conducted in Canto
Grande Prison [in 1990], Peruvian guerrilla commander Victor Polay
speaks about the strategy of the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary
Movement (MRTA), his childhood friend Alan Garcia, the current
President of Peru, and about the rival guerrilla organization
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso).
     Victory Polay Campos is a member of the Central Committee of
the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), a group formed in
the mid-1980s from the MTA and the MIR-IV, two radical-left
organizations. In 1986/87, the MRTA began its armed struggle
against the government of Alan Garcia. Their actions were
concentrated in the regions of San Martin, Loreto, and Uyacali in
the northern Amazon region. The number of armed MRTA guerrillas
is estimated to be between 1,000 and 1,500.
     In contrast to the more well known Sendero Luminoso, the
armed actions of the MRTA do not aim at the destruction of state
order and state institutions. Rather they seek to generate a
broad popular movement to make possible the transition to a new,
socialist society. Political work plays an important role in the
movement; by means of the UDP party, the MRTA has a legal
political voice. During the last parliamentary elections, UDP
representatives campaigned on the list of the Izquierda Unida
(United Left).
     Victor Polay is a jurist, fluent in both French and Euskara
[the language of the Basque people]. He studied in both France
and Spain - together with Alan Garcia, whom he lived together
with for a short time.
     After 1987, Polay, now known as "Comandante Rolando",
carried out a series of guerrilla actions in San Martin, until he
was arrested by chance during a raid on a tourist hotel in
Huancayo.
     The following interview was conducted in Canto Grande Prison
in Lima, a prison which was based on the model of the maximum-security 
facility in Muster, Germany. But Peru's infrastructure
is collapsing due to war and an economic crisis, and even the
prisons are no longer what they once were: the windows are
broken, many guard posts are empty, and the only restriction on
visitors is that they stay in either the "Men's Section" or the
"Women's Section". At the moment, the guards are on strike, so
prisoners have free reign from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. There are
separate cell blocks for the "political prisoners" - one for
Sendero activists, another for the MRTA. Osman Morote (a Sendero
leader arrested soon after Polay) and Victory Polay are detained
in individual cells, which can be locked from the inside.
     At the end of the interview, Polay led the reporter to the
door of the visiting area like a polite host, and said: "If
you're in the area again, stop by. My door's always open!"

[Well, the door may not have been open, but a tunnel soon was, as
Polay and 46 other MRTA militants staged a spectacular escape
from Canto Grande Prison. Polay was re-arrested in 1992 and is
now detained in total isolation in a cell 8 meters underground
inside the Callao navy base. Prison conditions have become much,
much worse under the Fujimori civil dictatorship. - ATS]

taz: Do you wish to be addressed with your military title?

Victory Polay: Ah, comrade, don't worry about it!

Comrade Victor, could you sketch out for us the most important
elements of the MRTA's strategy?

     The goal of the MRTA is to replace the so-called
representative democracy with the power of the people. Our
organization has three levels: the revolutionary forces, which
consist of full-time soldiers; when needed, these forces are
backed up by part-time militias; then there is the base, in the
villages, where there are self-defense committees whose duties
extend well beyond military matters into social, political, and
legal fields as well. We don't establish "liberated zones" in the
classic sense of the term, rather we support, with military
means, the creation of organized bases of popular power. When the
guerrilla is successful, the people gain confidence in their own
strength. For example, we would never call for a "paro armado",
an armed strike, like Sendero does. If people stay in their homes
for fear of retribution, that does not lead to an increase in
consciousness - such practices harm the armed struggle. When we
organized a strike in the northeast, the entire population was
with us at the barricades. That strengthened the MRTA very much,
but by no means are all members of popular organizations also
members of the MRTA.

Why did the MRTA launch its armed struggle in San Martin
province?

     The conditions were most favorable there: In the
countryside, the farmers were organized, as the region was the
most stable base of the CCP (Confederacion Campesina del Peru) in
all of Peru. And in the cities there were the "Frentes del
Defensa" [a form of popular front]. In 1985/86, we began to build
up our revolutionary forces, and in 1987 we launched our first
actions.

Could you give us a few examples?

     During the campaigns "Che Vive" and "Tupac Amaru
Libertador", we temporarily occupied a few provincial cities,
attacked police stations, and carried out public meetings. The
actions were concentrated in areas where the army had executed
farmers. In 1987, we were able, for the first time, to take over
a provincial capital, Juanji, a city of 25,000 inhabitants. That
same year we occupied the Sisa Valley for two weeks. During these
actions, we confiscated a large number of weapons, and we took
police officers hostage and carried out public hearings on their
activities - they were then reprimanded, told to behave
correctly, and set free. We abide by the Geneva Conventions and
we respect the rights of our prisoners of war. We treat criminals
the same way: in general, they are told to get the hell out of
the area. But some rapists and drug dealers have been executed on
the spot.
     It takes time for us to train our forces. In our camps, we
have schools which teach the theory and praxis of guerrilla
struggle.

What does one study as a guerrilla commander?

     In general, you learn from mistakes. In Cuczo, for example,
we failed because we acted in the manner of Robin Hood and
distributed food to the poor. That action won us lots of
applause, but it did not allow us to integrate ourselves into the
local population. Also, there are scores of books on the
experiences of Latin American guerrilla movements. Some of our
members were active back in 1965 in the guerrilla of Luis de la
Puente Uceda and we can learn from their strategic knowledge.

When the MRTA was formed in 1985, it offered a dialogue with
President Garcia. How was the situation different back then?

     In 1985, the government was virtually crippled by a wave of
strikes. In the elections, the left and Alan Garcia's APRA won a
great majority, and Alan Garcia promised to carry out radical
changes in the society. Every vanguard must be the expression of
the people's will, so in August 1985 we proposed negotiations
aimed at preventing a war. But at that time, Alan Garcia was at
the peak of his popularity and he ignored our initiative. The
Peace Commission he established had no mandate whatsoever. Then
in 1986, there was the infamous meeting of the Socialist
International in Lima and the massacre in the prisons - so then,
of course, we closed the door. [The military was given free reign
by Alan Garcia to quell a prison rebellion with force, and
subsequently hundreds of prisoners were killed or wounded.]

You used to be friends with Alan Garcia...

     Well, in certain families you are automatically born into
the APRA party. Alan Garcia came from an APRA family and so did
I. As members of the APRA's youth organization, we both carried
out armed actions against the Velasco military government in
1970. In 1972, I was arrested, but later released. We met again
when we were students in Spain and France; I had a warm
relationship with Alan Garcia, but no longer a political one, for
by then I was already a member of the MIR guerrilla movement.
Today, I would call Alan Garcia nothing more than a common
criminal.

What is your political assessment of five years of the APRA
government, which is now coming to an end?

     The APRA was always anti-oligarchic and anti-feudal. But our
country has changed. Peru is no longer semi-feudal, rather it has
become a dependent capitalist country. There is a bourgeoisie
which represents the interests of imperialism. True, these people
are neither patriotic nor are they interested in developing the
interests of the country, but they are no longer feudal land
owners. The working class has grown enormously, so we need 
anti-capitalist elements in our political theory, which is something
the APRA lacks. It is an ideologically backwards party.
     Alan Garcia has no concept for social change. He gave
radical speeches, but he kept on paying Peru's foreign debt. How
can you fight imperialism without going after the bourgeoisie
which depends on it? The decisive factor of the past five years
has been the dirty war and the thousands of deaths and
disappearances. There were and still are no mechanisms for
building a national consensus.

The legal left seems to be saying the same thing...

     The legal left has become soft. For them, participation in
elections is no longer just a strategic decision, but rather an
end in itself. These are elections to decide which administration
will carry on with the dirty war. It must be clearly stated: The
dirty war in its present dimensions started with the
democratically-elected governments of Belaunde and Garcia and
began after 1980.

What alternatives exist?

     The society must be re-created by the people - starting at
the base. In every factory and in every school there must be
mechanisms of direct control by the people. The monopolies must
be transformed into property of the people. By this, I don't mean
state control - public corporations are dependent on the
government, and are therefore subject to bureaucratization and
corruption. And by giving new life to our culture and customs, we
can give our country a new identity.

How have the recent events in Eastern Europe affected the MRTA?

     It is important to look at what happened, especially the
bureaucratization of the society and the privileged role of one
party. The USSR dominated COMECON, which led to the distortion of
many structures. Revolution cannot be exported, it must be
created everywhere by the people where they live.

What role, in your opinion, is played by Sendero Luminoso?

     Sendero is dogmatic and Stalinist. In their debates, there
is not the slightest hint of progress. And their lack of theory
is coupled with a dictatorial, terrorist-militarist praxis, which
in many cases is directed at the people itself. Sendero
represents the more marginalized sectors of the society, whereas
the left has been more present in the organized sectors.

Sendero leader Osman Morote is practically next door to you, so
to speak. Do you ever have discussions?

     No. As you know, Sendero does not discuss.