**************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu cc: Subject: Gods Player and Storyteller -------- Come on, folks! Say something?!?! *Last Dancer Spoilers Follow* Ok. Since The God of Players and Storyteller have the same symbol on their chest, does that mean they both belong to "United Earth Intelligence" (what was written on the outfit of the God of Players in Dvan's Story) I'm guessing that both storyteller and camber were originally with UEI, but that camber went renegade, as the greatest player ever, that is refered to somewhere in tLD... Am I forgeting anything here? **************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter) To: continuing-time@umich.edu cc: Subject: the Ring?? -------- Any body have a copy they want to sell me??? Saw 'The Long Run' completely transcribed on disk the other day... wonder how long before other books start pooping up... :-) _______________________________________________________________ Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises / dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu **************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu cc: Subject: Re: Gods Player and Storyteller -------- >*Last Dancer Spoilers Follow* >Ok. Since The God of Players and Storyteller have the same >symbol on their chest, does that mean they both belong to >"United Earth Intelligence" (what was written on the >outfit of the God of Players in Dvan's Story) Yes. Both are Nightfaces, it seems. Although why Storyteller wears white (when, I gather, black is the more traditional color) is beyond me. But, then, neither Storyteller nor Camber are stricly human, are they? >I'm guessing that both storyteller and camber >were originally with UEI, but that camber went >renegade, as the greatest player ever, that >is refered to somewhere in tLD... Huh? I don't remember that... Camber is the "renegade God of Players," but what kind of Players? Webdancers, like Trent? Or something else? Sean. **************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk moran) cc: windsorw@cs.tamu.edu (windsor d williams) Subject: "Players" -------- Sorry about the lack of response, but I (and probably a lot of other people) have been off-line (Spring Break, you know). Anyway, on this "players" business: I like the comment by (I think it was, sorry if not) sef@kithrup.com, that Camber being "God of Players" may not mean players in the sense of webdancers. It might, but I think it's meant in a broader sense. When Trent (don't have the exact quote handy) expresses his desire to be a Player, I don't think he means it in the sense of just being a very good webdancer. "Player" seems to imply something more - a person who _means_ something, who has an effect beyond just the web. Consider his donations to the food bank, his personal ethics on who he will and will not steal from, his interest in issues like the Link; Trent is interested in more than just being a "presence" in the web. Although Trent is (obviously!) unique, I think this sort of thing is what is meant be a "Player" - someone who affects bigger issues. In this sense, one could be a player without being a webdancer at all, and vice versa. Sorry if this rambled - still recovering from too much sun. Windsor **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "david f. paulsen" To: windsor d williams , continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books Return-Receipt-To: "David F. Paulsen" Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) -------- >From: Windsor D Williams >Subject: Getting the books >To: continuing-time@umich.edu (DK_Moran list) >Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 02:13:59 -0600 (CST) [...] > I managed to come up with some copies of Moran's > books which I would be willing to part with, if anyone is interested. I > would prefer to make a trade for a copy of _Emerald Eyes_ (which I > haven't been able to find in well over a year of looking), [...] I, also, would love to read _Emerald Eyes_, but have been unable to find a copy in +/- 3 years of searching. If somebody does have a copy, how possible would it be to (shudder) transcribe it to ascii and upload it to an FTPable locale? I know other great books are available over the net in just this fashion, and I've wondered how it was done: tag-teams of crazed typists, massed arrays of bed-scanners with OCR software, or...? This is probably a silly idea, and a violation of copyright law besides, but they can't lock me up for thinking it aloud, eh? :-) > Windsor David **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: dpaulsen@ices.tdh.texas.gov cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- >If somebody does have a copy, >how possible would it be to (shudder) transcribe it to ascii and upload it >to an FTPable locale? isn't this illegal? mike **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Getting the books -------- Greetings, felloe Moran fans! If anyone is still on this list, that is...been pretty quiet lately. Anyway, to business. During my recent Spring Break, I had the chance to scrounge through several used books stores. I managed to come up with some copies of Moran's books which I would be willing to part with, if anyone is interested. I would prefer to make a trade for a copy of _Emerald Eyes_ (which I haven't been able to find in well over a year of looking), if anyone has a copy to spare. If not, I would be happy to send them to fellow Moran enthusiasts for my cost + postage + a few bucks. I have: 1 copy of _The Long Run_, decent if somewhat battered condition 1 copy of _The Armegeddon Blues_, in good condition (and the real find) 1 copy of _The Ring_, hardcover obviously, in good condition, with dust jacket I would definitely prefer to arrange a trade including a copy of _Emerald Eyes_ if possible (why can't I find a copy of it? I've managed to find at least two of all his other stuff!), but other offers will be considered. On another topic, are we still supposed to be on track for the next book late this year? I haven't heard anything recently...does anyone have fresh news? Windsor **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: marcus eubanks To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Nice though having the books in ascii form at an FTP site somewhere might be, it most assuredly *is* a copyright violation. We'd be doing Mr. Moran a disservice by pirateing his work. Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) Temple University School of Medicine 1996 Philadelphia, PA USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe in an afterbirth. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "david f. paulsen" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) -------- >Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 11:46:05 -0500 (EST) >From: Marcus Eubanks > >Nice though having the books in ascii form at an FTP site somewhere >might be, it most assuredly *is* a copyright violation. We'd be doing >Mr. Moran a disservice by pirateing his work. > >Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) > Temple University School of >Medicine 1996 Philadelphia, PA USA This is probably futile, but I'd like to head this off as soon as possible: I was *NOT* suggesting that anybody actually do this, ie upload ascii versions of Moran's work to an FTP site. I was just thinking out loud about how *other* projects like that were accomplished. I mean, the feat itself would be pretty incredible. I was not serious. There were smiley faces. I believe I even said it was illegal in my original note. I'd dearly love to read _Emerald Eyes_, but not at the expense of the man who wrote it. Is that clear enough? David **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: "david f. paulsen" cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- More constructively, sending mail to Bantam ought to solve this. I'm almost willing to boycott Bantam books until they decide to reprint Emerald Eyes and The Long Run. Piaw "I don't want to die, sometimes I wish I'd never been born at all!" --- Bohemian Rhapsody, Queen. "A Night at the Opera." **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" sender: "j.c. duval" reply-to: "j.c. duval" To: "david f. paulsen" cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Ever heard of Rockeffeller Plaza(sp?)? Every year, they close it off for a day or so because if they don't, ownership will revert to the government. I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert to the (electronic) public domain. DKM himself has suggested some of his future work may be in that format. BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you can't find it? Let's all blame Bantam for the morons that they are for not reprinting the series. As for the Ring..well let's not start that:). Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as the EFF. Would Trent have objected?:) "On there was a thief, and this thief was God." **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- *sigh* People who don't know and understand copyright law should not be discussing it as if they did. Instead, they should go out to the nearest bookstore or public library and get a good introductory book on the subject (there are quite a few). >Ever heard of Rockeffeller Plaza(sp?)? Every year, they close it off for a >day or so because if they don't, ownership will revert to the government. They do this because an old and accepted property (pun unintentional) of real estate (land, that is) is that if it is open to the public, and the public believes that it is public property, and the owners make no attempt to assert their ownership, then, after a certain amount of time, it reverts to becoming public property. The practice of homesteading is one variant of this, I believe. (However, I do not understand real property laws as well as I do intellectual property laws.) As a result, once every certain period, the owners have to remind the public of that. Here in the Bay Area, the owners of the Stanford Campus have one day, every year or four, where they set up guards to stop people coming in and let them know they are entering private property. >I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert >to the (electronic) public domain. That's nice. It's also extremely naive. Not publishing a work is as much a property of ownership as publishing it is. If the owner of a copyright chooses to not publish it for the entire 75 years that a copyright lasts, that is their right, and there are ofttimes good reasons to do so. (CBS, for example, has stated it will never show the old Amos&Andy series, because they consider it would be so offensive. If they did not own the copyright on it, they could not prevent anyone [who had a copy somewhere, and, yes, there are people who do] from showing it, selling it, or whatever.) Copyrights run out after 75 years. Also, in the case of publishers and authors, most contracts are written with certain time limits -- that is, unless it is renewed, after a certain amount of time (25 years?), the rights to publish revert back to the author, who may choose to sell them to someone else. >BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you >can't find it? More naivety. If a copyrighted work is allowed, at any point, to be copied without the author's permission, and the author (or owner of the copyright, or the owner's agent [i.e., lawyer]) does not do something to defend that copyright, the copyright, for all intents and purposes, is lost. Meaning that anyone can take all or part of the work and publish it as their own. Or take the characters in it and incorporate them into their own works. Etc. And any of that would cause DKM to lose money, by losing the rights to sell copies of the work at a later date, and also by allowing his world and characters to be used by anyone who wishes to. >Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as >I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply >saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about >cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as >the EFF. Bruce Sterling fought long and hard to have that happen, and it only happened after the book had been out for a quite a while, and sales had past their peak. Bruce Sterling is also a Famous Author, and can get away with such things, because his publishers know that any book that comes out with his name on it will sell copies. Other authors have done the same (e.g., Brendan Kehoe, author of _Zen and the Art of the Internet_). These are very much the exception, and will continue to remain so. The EFF does not advocate, by any means, violating copyrights. The EFF doesn't even advocate authors giving away their livelihood and making their books available on the net for free. Something most members of the EFF do seem to agree will happens is selling books, stories, and articles over the net, where you will pay for your copy in electronic form, just as you do now for it in printed form. >From your statement, I believe you do not understand what the EFF stands for, its motives, or what it does. I would suggest you find out more about them. DKM may very well stand "for the same values as the EFF"; I suspect he does. However, I also suspect I am better informed about the EFF than you are. I would also suggest you ask DKM about his value and thoughts before you start trying to act or advocate actions based on them. Sean. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: noah k scarr To: "david f. paulsen" , piaw@cs.washington.edu cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Excerpts from dkm: 31-Mar-94 Re: Getting the books by piaw@cs.washington.edu >More constructively, sending mail to Bantam ought to solve this. I'm >almost willing to boycott Bantam books until they decide to reprint >Emerald Eyes and The Long Run. What's their address? I _will_ boycott their books (now that I've already bought _The_Last_Dancer_)... And no laughing at my .project... Noah K. Scarr ns2v+@andrew.cmu.edu Mellon College of Science Carnegie Mellon University **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Threatening Bantam with boycotting them unless they republish some books is not likely to work: you will come off as either a jerk, an extremist (by definition, in the minority), or as a blathering fool, none of which will get them to listen. Instead, send mail to them and tell them that if they were to republish the books in question you, at least, would be on a waiting list to buy them. Then, find your local neighborhood bookstores, and start calling them and asking for the book. If, like me, you are friendly with the owner of a small store (the store I go to is a F/SF/Mystery bookstore, small, but the owner carries a lot of weight because of the specialty), see if you can get them to cooperate and put some pressure on the publisher to re-issue the books. Only as a last resort, after you've tried convincing the publisher to republish, and they've told you that they have no intention of ever doing so again, do you start trying to convince people to stop buying from them. And even then, it will almost certainly not work. Sean. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote lots of stuff: > *sigh* > > People who don't know and understand copyright law should not be discussing > it as if they did. Instead, they should go out to the nearest bookstore > or public library and get a good introductory book on the subject (there > are quite a few). Excuse me for not being a lawyer.:). > >I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert > >to the (electronic) public domain. > > That's nice. It's also extremely naive. Not publishing a work is as > much a property of ownership as publishing it is. If the owner of a > copyright chooses to not publish it for the entire 75 years that a copyright > lasts, that is their right, and there are ofttimes good reasons to do so. > (CBS, for example, has stated it will never show the old Amos&Andy series, > because they consider it would be so offensive. If they did not own the > copyright on it, they could not prevent anyone [who had a copy somewhere, > and, yes, there are people who do] from showing it, selling it, or > whatever.) > > Copyrights run out after 75 years. Also, in the case of publishers and > authors, most contracts are written with certain time limits -- that is, > unless it is renewed, after a certain amount of time (25 years?), the > rights to publish revert back to the author, who may choose to sell them > to someone else. > > >BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you > >can't find it? > > More naivety. > > If a copyrighted work is allowed, at any point, to be copied without the > author's permission, and the author (or owner of the copyright, or > the owner's agent [i.e., lawyer]) does not do something to defend that > copyright, the copyright, for all intents and purposes, is lost. Meaning > that anyone can take all or part of the work and publish it as their > own. Or take the characters in it and incorporate them into their own > works. Etc. > > And any of that would cause DKM to lose money, by losing the rights to > sell copies of the work at a later date, and also by allowing his world > and characters to be used by anyone who wishes to. > > >Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as > >I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply > >saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about > >cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as > >the EFF. > > Bruce Sterling fought long and hard to have that happen, and it only happened > after the book had been out for a quite a while, and sales had past their > peak. Bruce Sterling is also a Famous Author, and can get away with such > things, because his publishers know that any book that comes out with his > name on it will sell copies. > > Other authors have done the same (e.g., Brendan Kehoe, author of _Zen and > the Art of the Internet_). These are very much the exception, and will > continue to remain so. > > The EFF does not advocate, by any means, violating copyrights. The EFF > doesn't even advocate authors giving away their livelihood and making > their books available on the net for free. Something most members of > the EFF do seem to agree will happens is selling books, stories, and > articles over the net, where you will pay for your copy in electronic > form, just as you do now for it in printed form. > > >From your statement, I believe you do not understand what the EFF stands > for, its motives, or what it does. I would suggest you find out more about > them. DKM may very well stand "for the same values as the EFF"; I suspect > he does. However, I also suspect I am better informed about the EFF > than you are. > > I would also suggest you ask DKM about his value and thoughts before you > start trying to act or advocate actions based on them. > > Sean. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Sorry about the last message, my Superdooper walled and freaked me out while writing my reply. On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > *sigh* > > People who don't know and understand copyright law should not be discussing > it as if they did. Instead, they should go out to the nearest bookstore > or public library and get a good introductory book on the subject (there > are quite a few). Sue me for not being a lawyer.:) > >I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert > >to the (electronic) public domain. > > That's nice. It's also extremely naive. Not publishing a work is as > much a property of ownership as publishing it is. If the owner of a > copyright chooses to not publish it for the entire 75 years that a copyright > lasts, that is their right, and there are ofttimes good reasons to do so. > Copyrights run out after 75 years. Also, in the case of publishers and > authors, most contracts are written with certain time limits -- that is, > unless it is renewed, after a certain amount of time (25 years?), the > rights to publish revert back to the author, who may choose to sell them > to someone else. Some people are touchy. I was simply reacting to the influx of 'this is illegal' messages. Photocopying manuals without asking the author is illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is all I am saying. > >BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you > >can't find it? > > More naivety. > > If a copyrighted work is allowed, at any point, to be copied without the > author's permission, and the author (or owner of the copyright, or > the owner's agent [i.e., lawyer]) does not do something to defend that > copyright, the copyright, for all intents and purposes, is lost. Meaning > that anyone can take all or part of the work and publish it as their > own. Or take the characters in it and incorporate them into their own > works. Etc. > > And any of that would cause DKM to lose money, by losing the rights to > sell copies of the work at a later date, and also by allowing his world > and characters to be used by anyone who wishes to. All I am suggesting is that perhaps a physical copyright should be replaced by an electronic copyright. The data could the nbe allowed into public domain if the author wished it so. Naive idealism is not all that that bad. In 10-20 years, I could have a scanner/OCR fast enough to make your average paperback into 300k of data in a matter of minutes. How will you protect the author's copyright then? If the software companies cannot protect their products now, imagine how fast 300k of text could get dispersed in the net. > >Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as > >I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply > >saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about > >cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as > >the EFF. > > Bruce Sterling fought long and hard to have that happen, and it only happened > after the book had been out for a quite a while, and sales had past their > peak. Bruce Sterling is also a Famous Author, and can get away with such > things, because his publishers know that any book that comes out with his > name on it will sell copies. > > Other authors have done the same (e.g., Brendan Kehoe, author of _Zen and > the Art of the Internet_). These are very much the exception, and will > continue to remain so. > > The EFF does not advocate, by any means, violating copyrights. The EFF > doesn't even advocate authors giving away their livelihood and making > their books available on the net for free. Something most members of > the EFF do seem to agree will happens is selling books, stories, and > articles over the net, where you will pay for your copy in electronic > form, just as you do now for it in printed form. > > >From your statement, I believe you do not understand what the EFF stands > for, its motives, or what it does. I would suggest you find out more about > them. DKM may very well stand "for the same values as the EFF"; I suspect > he does. However, I also suspect I am better informed about the EFF > than you are. > > I would also suggest you ask DKM about his value and thoughts before you > start trying to act or advocate actions based on them. > > Sean. I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing which I don't." How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? a global Police-state?:) A local newspaper had an article published with quotes from a Usenet newsgroup. Some people on the net were shocked that their copyright was not respected and the quotes were not attributed to them. My reply was not intended to comment on how the copyright laws are right now but rather on how they will/should be. As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as cut and dried and you make them to be. By the by, have you ever read Daniel Derrida? **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- More idiocy, ignorance, and foolishness. >Photocopying manuals without asking the author is >illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past >or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital >crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very >strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is >all I am saying. Go read a good introduction to copyright law before you claim to understand it. In it, you will find out about this concept called "fair use," which allows educational institutions to get away with a lot. Also, you will also find that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that taping a TV show was legal. But not that you should be bothered with facts. >The data could the nbe allowed into >public domain if the author wished it so. It already can. The author does not wish it so. More importantly, the author has signed away his rights (presumably, again, for a limited period). But, again, why should facts bother you? >I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News >Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: > "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm > disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing > which I don't." >How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? Easy enough. It's been done before, and the methods are improving. I have no desire to lecture about cryptography and digital signatures, and the other viable ways to limit distribution of electronic data, with someone who can't even be bothered to learn anything. >As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight >Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by >AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as >cut and dried and you make them to be. Go check again, idiot. They defended it because the information was available to anyone who wanted it, therefore, he could not have violated a copyright the way AT&T said he did. Now go away; I do not want to heare from you again until you learn some truth about what you're trying to talk about. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: more forged mail -------- >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:22:35 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16037; 31 Mar 94 15:22 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:19:16 EST Get a life, you son of a bitch. If you're going to flame somebody that nastily, why don't you just do it to them, so the rest of the world doesn't have to hear about it??? Motherfucker. Go suck some sick sheep's asshole. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: forged mail -------- Any and all forged mail will be forwarded back to the list. If you are so sure of your words, stop hiding. >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:18:05 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa15959; 31 Mar 94 15:18 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:17:34 EST You are a putx. You shouldn't flame people so hard. Web angels will come and tear you apart. Asshole! **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: more forged mail -------- >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:24:28 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16065; 31 Mar 94 15:24 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:24:05 EST You may be smart, but you lack a sense of humor. Killing is wrong, but youshouldn't have been born. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: still more -------- >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:30:25 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16164; 31 Mar 94 15:30 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:30:05 EST You are the fool. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: They have sown the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind. -------- I guess some people really have no manners. >From sef@kithrup.com Thu Mar 31 18:38:16 1994 Message-Id: <9403312338.AA21780@tornade.ERE.UMontreal.CA> Date: Thu Mar 31 15:43:09 PST 1994 From: MAIL-DAEMON@kithrup.com To: duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca Subject: Failed mail Sender: sef@kithrup.com Status: RO Your message could not be delivered due to: Permission denied Your message follows Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16449; 31 Mar 94 15:43 PST Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with SMTP id AA00153 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for sef@kithrup.com); Thu, 31 Mar 1994 18:37:59 -0500 Received: from tornade.ERE.UMontreal.CA by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (920330.SGI/5.17) id AA02055; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:37:58 -0500 Received: by tornade.ERE.UMontreal.CA (920330.SGI/5.17) id AA21772; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:37:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 18:16:26 -0500 (EST) From: "J.C. DuVal" Subject: Re: Getting the books To: sef@kithrup.com Cc: continuing-time@umich.edu In-Reply-To: <199403312244.RAA26688@totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > More idiocy, ignorance, and foolishness. > > >Photocopying manuals without asking the author is > >illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past > >or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital > >crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very > >strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is > >all I am saying. > > Go read a good introduction to copyright law before you claim to understand > it. In it, you will find out about this concept called "fair use," which > allows educational institutions to get away with a lot. Also, you will > also find that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that taping a TV show was > legal. But not that you should be bothered with facts. What an ethnocentric viewpoint. Robert Silverberg got really pissed some time ago because some east european publishers were publishing translations of his work without his consent. Perhaps they should have consulted you on your american conception of a copyright. I'm a Canadian. Can I tape a TV show? > >I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News > >Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: > > "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm > > disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing > > which I don't." > >How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? > > Easy enough. It's been done before, and the methods are improving. I have > no desire to lecture about cryptography and digital signatures, and the > other viable ways to limit distribution of electronic data, with someone > who can't even be bothered to learn anything. Now who is naive? For every encryption/protection ever made, there has always been some hacker/pirate to crack it. Limit the distribution of electronic data? How? I can send you a PGP-encrypted book but once decrypted, you can give it to whoever wants it. I guess we have a budding netcop here. > >As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight > >Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by > >AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as > >cut and dried and you make them to be. > > Go check again, idiot. > > They defended it because the information was available to anyone who wanted > it, therefore, he could not have violated a copyright the way AT&T said > he did. Stooping to name-calling eh? What Knight Lightning did was a 21$, or some other small amount, copyright violation. It was available to anyone who wanted it for a price, however smaller than the one AT&T claimed it to be worth. A NY Times article is worth what 2 cents? Can I reprint it in my local newspaer without paying. KL did not have AT&T's authorisation to reprint the material and it was therefore a copyright violation. > Now go away; I do not want to heare from you again until you learn some > truth about what you're trying to talk about. I prefer manners to truth. I fear anyone who proclaims himself to be holding the truth within his precious breast. I have kept this discussion polite and you have not. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > More idiocy, ignorance, and foolishness. > > >Photocopying manuals without asking the author is > >illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past > >or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital > >crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very > >strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is > >all I am saying. > > Go read a good introduction to copyright law before you claim to understand > it. In it, you will find out about this concept called "fair use," which > allows educational institutions to get away with a lot. Also, you will > also find that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that taping a TV show was > legal. But not that you should be bothered with facts. What an ethnocentric viewpoint. Robert Silverberg got really pissed some time ago because some east european publishers were publishing translations of his work without his consent. Perhaps they should have consulted you on your american conception of a copyright. I'm a Canadian. Can I tape a TV show? > >I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News > >Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: > > "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm > > disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing > > which I don't." > >How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? > > Easy enough. It's been done before, and the methods are improving. I have > no desire to lecture about cryptography and digital signatures, and the > other viable ways to limit distribution of electronic data, with someone > who can't even be bothered to learn anything. Now who is naive? For every encryption/protection ever made, there has always been some hacker/pirate to crack it. Limit the distribution of electronic data? How? I can send you a PGP-encrypted book but once decrypted, you can give it to whoever wants it. I guess we have a budding netcop here. > >As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight > >Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by > >AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as > >cut and dried and you make them to be. > > Go check again, idiot. > > They defended it because the information was available to anyone who wanted > it, therefore, he could not have violated a copyright the way AT&T said > he did. Stooping to name-calling eh? What Knight Lightning did was a 21$, or some other small amount, copyright violation. It was available to anyone who wanted it for a price, however smaller than the one AT&T claimed it to be worth. A NY Times article is worth what 2 cents? Can I reprint it in my local newspaer without paying. KL did not have AT&T's authorisation to reprint the material and it was therefore a copyright violation. > Now go away; I do not want to heare from you again until you learn some > truth about what you're trying to talk about. I prefer manners to truth. I fear anyone who proclaims himself to be holding the truth within his precious breast. I have kept this discussion polite and you have not. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "ian sutherland" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Copyrights in the Continuuing Time? -------- Might I suggest that those of you who want to discuss copyright law do so by e-mail or in some more appropriate forum? I, for one, am on this mailing list to participate (even if only passively :-) in discussions about Moran's work, not about copyright law. Please take it elsewhere. Please don't bother to respond that Moran's work is "cyberpunk" and so discussions of putting books on the net is somehow appropriate. That's way too thin. -- Ian Sutherland Key Software, Inc. ian@chicago.keysoft.com (708)864-1596 **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- I'm actually a fan of boycotts, primarily because I've seen them work (on some local restaurants in this area, for example). It's not necessarily the economic disadvantage, but it's a statement of grave displeasure at a publisher's behavior. In this case, I think Bantam's doing DKM a disservice by: - not promoting his books - not keeping them in print I've loaned my copy of "The Long Run" to friends and family, and the response has uniformly been "this is incredibly good stuff --- why haven't I heard of it?" and "where can I get more?" I've hunted through countless bookstores in both Seattle and the San Francisco Bay Area, to no avail in an attempt to get "Emerald Eyes" (I've finally managed to find a copy through the net, however). I've forked over a lot of money to get a copy of "Armageddon Blues." All of this money could have gone directly to Bantam and DKM. Nearly every specialist SF bookstore I've been to knows of a DKM shortage, and every time I've asked to be put on a "want list" in case a used copy comes in, I'm behind at least one other person who's been to the store and asked for it. Certainly, a letter to Bantam (I'll get the address as soon as my friend returns my copy of "The Last Dancer" and "The Long Run" to me) would be the first order of business --- I'd like to tell their marketing director of the amount of pent-up demand that's out there for DKM. Piaw I'm sick of being trodden on! The Elder Gods say they can make me a man! All it costs is my soul! I'll do it, cuz NOW I'M MAD!!! - Necronomicomics #1, Jack Herman & Jeff Dee **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- In the articles dkm posted to the net, he said that the book he was working on then was _Lord November: The Man-Spacething War_; I've been assuming that it would be published before the next two Trent books. However, the "About the Author" section in Dancer implies that the Trent duology will come out first (in the fall of '94). Am I the only one who thought that? Oh, yeah, and the address for Bantam/Spectra is: Bantam Books 1540 Broadway New York, NY 10036 (that might be then addressed to Spectra c/o Bantam Books, but I'm not sure how that all works.) Sean. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "simon b. cardinale" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: ... -------- Of course DKM gets no money when we buy his books used, either. The money goes to the publisher only when the bookstore buys his books from the publisher (there might be another middle-man distributor in there, I don't know.) Anyone in the SF Bay Area should try The Other Change of Hobbit. I got a copy of Emerald Eyes there after a wait of less than a week from the time I put my name on their "whish list." Of course they charged me more than the cover price... Stung even more because I once bought a new copy of Emerald Eyes at the original A Change of Hobbit (in LA) for a DISCOUNT off the cover price... By the way, for those of you who asked me to get you books at Dark Carnival (also in Berkeley) they're out of DKM. I got the last two new copies of The Ring, and someone else got the last two new, signed, permabound Amrmageddon Blues. (I got one, then they brought more out of storage a week later.) They also had 5 (!) copies of Long Run, but I got two and someone else grabbed the other three... Sorry... -Simon PS Sorry I didn't write several of you back sooner... I can't get to Dark Carnival so easily... **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") To: continuing-time%umich.edu@inet-gw-3.pa.dec.com Subject: forged email posted to list -------- While I'm not objecting in principle to posting forged email to the list, I could wish that the email itself were more amusing to read. Presumably, the source of this email is on the list, so hopefully this request will reach their eyes, and inspire them to, at least, more imaginative depths, if not actual high-quality flames. Rebecca **************** *** 04-02-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: "simon b. cardinale" cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: ... -------- >Anyone in the SF Bay Area should try The Other Change of Hobbit. I got a >copy of Emerald Eyes there after a wait of less than a week from the time >I put my name on their "whish list." My name's there on their whish list. But there's at least one more guy ahead of me. Get the idea? >I got the last two new copies >of The Ring, and someone else got the last two new, signed, permabound >Amrmageddon Blues. All copies of "The Ring" are now gone at Dark Carnival. I bought 1, someone else on the net bought another. I was the person who bought the last two new, signed, permabound copies of "Armageddon Blues." (Yep, I know enough about bookstores that when I was down in California, I made it a point to visit Berkeley!) > (I got one, then they brought more out of storage a week >later.) They also had 5 (!) copies of Long Run, but I got two and someone >else grabbed the other three... This is a ridiculous situation. If I were DKM, I'd be so pissed I'd switch publishers at once. Time to write Bantam a nasty note. Piaw To know the world one must construct it. - Cesare Pavese **************** *** 04-02-94 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Foolishness -------- My apologies for sending this to everyone on the list. I'm sure most of you understand the basic rules of courtesy and politeness on the net. But obviously a few of those on the mailing list don't understand them, and I'd like to make sure everyone understands what the rules are. This is a mailing list for talking about the works of DKM. It is not for having stupid flame-wars about copyright law. It is not for making sure everyone can read the immature, forged, vulgar, lame flames you have recieved. It is not the place for posting long pieces of mail which bounced when you tried to send it to someone's account; especially when that mail was already sent to the entire group. (And, of course, didn't really belong on the group at all.) Mailing lists depend upon a high signal-to-noise ratio for their survival. Thanks to this recent bout of stupidity, there has been a drastic increase in traffic over the few days, three quarters of which had absolutely no place on this group. Two people unsubscribed at the height of it; a third person (not involved in the flamewar) has asked that a person be removed from the list. The nature of the list makes this impractical; I easily take names off the list, but they can still send mail to list. I don't have the time to make this a moderated group, or the resources to establish some sort of list server. Thus I'm just going to ask that everyone behave. Please, stick to the subject of the group, and be polite --- no vulgarity, no flamewars, no posting of private mail without permission. -Sol **************** *** 04-03-94 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- While DKM did say that the next book to be released would be Man Spacething War, it may well be that Bantam Spectra have persuaded him to release the books about Trent first, on the reasoning that Trent is the most popular character in the series so far and it would make sense economically to release books about him in order to appease current readers and also to gain new ones. These will then go on to buy the other 30 or so books in the Continuing Time. It might also be that DKM needs a bit of money after his divorce and so wants to write the really popular books first. Who knows? Regards, Greg P.s.: I did hear a rumour that DKM won't be publishing anything for about two years after the finalisation of his divorce settlement on the grounds that anything published within two years will be adjudged to be partially written while he was still married, but that's just a rumour -- "I don't need to sell my soul... He's already in me." -I Wanna Be Adored, The Stone Roses =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- Greg writes: >While DKM did say that the next book to be released would be Man >Spacething War, it may well be that Bantam Spectra have persuaded him to >release the books about Trent first, on the reasoning that Trent is the >most popular character in the series so far and it would make sense >economically to release books about him in order to appease current >readers and also to gain new ones. These will then go on to buy the >other 30 or so books in the Continuing Time. It might also be that DKM >needs a bit of money after his divorce and so wants to write the really >popular books first. Who knows? Well, a while back I was chatting with someone from the Amber mailing list who claimed to have read thirty pages or so of the Man-Spacething War (as well as all of the Last Dancer, well before it was published). He gave me no reason to suspect he was lying, and certainly seemed to be quite a fan, so I took him at his word. Also understand that, from what I have heard, DKM is loaded, so money probably isn't an issue for him. Also remember that this information comes from Bantam Spectra, which is completely brain-dead. For example, the About the Author in Last Dancer lists Armageddon Blues as a Continuing Time book. Last but not least, Last Dancer was done a long time ago. There has definitely been time for him to write two books by this fall. So I'm hoping that sometime this summer we get Man-Spacething, and then this fall we get Players, Book One. -Sol >P.s.: I did hear a rumour that DKM won't be publishing anything for >about two years after the finalisation of his divorce settlement on the >grounds that anything published within two years will be adjudged to be >partially written while he was still married, but that's just a rumour Where's it from? Seems unlikely --- I mean, even if I'm wrong and he is hard up for money, he'll have more short term if he publishes than if he sits on stuff he's already written. Not to mention that coming out with a new book every three years while letting the old ones go out of print is not the way to build up a loyal base of fans. **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- >Also understand that, from what I have heard, DKM is loaded, so money >probably isn't an issue for him. I don't think so. His main profession is a contractor, however, so if he's any good, he can easily work six months a year. >Also remember that this information comes from Bantam Spectra, which is >completely brain-dead. For example, the About the Author in Last Dancer >lists Armageddon Blues as a Continuing Time book. Well, it *is* shown on the time wheel in the back of the book. So I'll give them a little bit of leeway there; they just got a bit confused. >Last but not least, Last Dancer was done a long time ago. There has >definitely been time for him to write two books by this fall. Again, according to the postings he made, Bantam was waiting to get the first draft of the next book (which, again, I had assumed was Lord November) before they published tLD, because of how much delay there had been between tLR and tLD. Which implies to me that tLD was *not* done a long time ago; rather, only a couple of years ago. (A "long time ago" would have been by late '90.) (In fact, tLD ends with "1989-1992," so I believe that's how long it took to be written.) >So I'm hoping that sometime this summer we get Man-Spacething, and then >this fall we get Players, Book One. Yeah, but I haven't seen it in any "Future Books" listing. Which doesn't mean much, because I didn't see anything about tLD and I was looking. (First proof I had that it was coming was when the proprieter of the bookstore I frequent handed me a readers' copy of _The Last Dancer_ and let me at it. I've asked her to do the same with any other DKM book she gets an advanced copy of.) Sean. **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: andrew mccoll To: piaw@cs.washington.edu cc: sef@kithrup.com, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 piaw@cs.washington.edu wrote: > I'm actually a fan of boycotts, primarily because I've seen them work > (on some local restaurants in this area, for example). It's not > necessarily the economic disadvantage, but it's a statement of grave > displeasure at a publisher's behavior. In this case, I think Bantam's > doing DKM a disservice by: > - not promoting his books > - not keeping them in print Hi Sorry for coming in on this topic late. But I was wondering whether anyone has considered sending a copy of this discussion to Bantam. (Minus incriminating headers). Perhaps if they understood that they risk losing all future profits from Emerald Eyes as a result of it being uploaded to the net they might get their shit together and organise a reprint. Of course they may just threaten to sue anyone who does it. But then thats what anonymous mailers are for. Skippy skippy@lethe.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia "That which does not kill us Perth, Western Australia Must have missed." **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- >But I was wondering whether >anyone has considered sending a copy of this discussion to Bantam. I don't know if that would do any good. Or if it might be acceptable to send a listing of the mailing list (using names, not email addresses, of course) saying that all these people are extremely interested in DKM's books, blah blah blah. Or maybe just a note saying "The following people, from an electronic mailing list devoted to discussing Daniel K. Moran's Continuing Time series, are so willing to get copies of _Emerald Eyes_ and _The Long Run_ that they have scoured the world, and paid for copies to be shipped overseas," and then have a list of everyone who says it's okay to do so. Sean. **************** *** 04-05-94 *** **************** From: "ian sutherland" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Threatening Bantam -------- Why is it that people always want to resort to threats first? Before threatening to violate copyrights and institute boycotts, why not try to put together a letter from people who'd like to see the books reprinted and send it to Bantam? -- Ian Sutherland Key Software, Inc. ian@chicago.keysoft.com (708)864-1596 **************** *** 04-05-94 *** **************** From: andrew mccoll To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- > I don't know if that would do any good. Or if it might be acceptable to > send a listing of the mailing list (using names, not email addresses, > of course) saying that all these people are extremely interested in DKM's > books, blah blah blah. It couldnt hurt. skippy@lethe.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia "That which does not kill us Perth, Western Australia Must have missed." **************** *** 04-05-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Threatening Bantam Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >Date: Mon, 04 Apr 1994 08:24:36 CDT >From: "Ian Sutherland" > >Why is it that people always want to resort to threats >first? Before threatening to violate copyrights and >institute boycotts, why not try to put together a letter >from people who'd like to see the books reprinted and >send it to Bantam? Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is ordering the book directly from the publisher. They may still have a few copies tucked away in a corner in a warehouse somewhere. I remember seeing forms in the back of books for such orders, but I can't find any in the nearest stack at the moment. :-) Usually all you need is the ISBN (trivial) and the price of the book plus a small handling fee. Look around your collections and see if you can find a Bantam book with such a form. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** *** 04-11-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: next question... -------- Any ideas on what the Living Flame is? Sean. **************** *** 04-16-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: the telepaths -------- A couple of points about the telepaths and telepathy, while we're all waiting for the next books to come out :). a) Did everyone notice that telepathy is instantaneous, or at least so much faster than _c_ that it doesn't matter? (When Denice touched Trent's mind in _The Long Run_, while he was on Luna.) b) Carl says that reading minds is painful -- yet none of the telepaths ever show that. Denice is afraid for Trent to touch her, when she's not sure of who he is, and she did not like being touched by what's-her-name, at the end of _Emerald Eyes_ -- but, despite how much we see things from her point of view, we never really see any of the discomfort or pain. So... was Carl exaggerating (or out and out lying?) for PR reasons? Sean. **************** *** 04-16-94 *** **************** From: "mark l. williamson" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: the telepaths -------- sef@kithrup.com writes: >A couple of points about the telepaths and telepathy, while we're all >waiting for the next books to come out :). >a) Did everyone notice that telepathy is instantaneous, or at least so >much faster than _c_ that it doesn't matter? (When Denice touched Trent's >mind in _The Long Run_, while he was on Luna.) It certainly looks that way but if that's the case it means that Denise is a LOT^ more powerful than Carl. In EE he couldn't find Carson when he and the twins were just a few kms away and screened by a few thousand nearby people. >b) Carl says that reading minds is painful -- yet none of the telepaths >ever show that. Denice is afraid for Trent to touch her, when she's not >sure of who he is, and she did not like being touched by what's-her-name, >at the end of _Emerald Eyes_ -- but, despite how much we see things from >her point of view, we never really see any of the discomfort or pain. >So... was Carl exaggerating (or out and out lying?) for PR reasons? I think Carl was refering mostly to the other Telepaths, remember that he was more than a little different from the rest (both mentally due to his early years and he was genetically different from all the other telepaths except for his immediate family). Jany McConnel certainly felt pain, of course that could have been just emotional pain. At least two occasions with Denice come to mind immediately. The time when Denice was leaving Goddess Home and had to 'adjust' Alaya and the time she had to 'adjust' Ichabod while interviewing for the bodyguard position with Ripper. Both times she ends up with apparantly very HEAVY DUTY headaches. Cannot think up any others off the top of my head, but I imagine there are other examples. >Sean. -- Mark mlw@engr.latech.edu **************** *** 04-17-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Emerald Eyes... -------- I finally got a copy of Emerald Eyes and finished it in one sitting. As I read it, I kept getting a feeling of Deja Vu, as though I've read it before. Has it ever been published in a different form? (I could have read a library copy before...) The really impressive thing, now that I've read all of Moran's novel is how good he's become. Emerald Eyes was stilted in parts but still good, but by the time of "The Long Run", Moran had lost all of the stiltedness in his early novels. His style was transparent, easy to read, yet conveyed subtlety well. In "The Last Dancer", he's demonstrated that he's capable of conveying the "inside" of a person as well as the outside, and that's fantastic. Among other things, it's finally been clear to me at an emotional level that Moran's plotted out everything in advance... Unfortunately, Emerald Eyes kinda spoils the suspense of who Denise is going to be attached to for me, as I now know that she's going to be attached to Ripper... I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next novel... Piaw Time is an illusion perpetrated by the manufacturers of space. - Graffiti **************** *** 04-17-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, piaw@cs.washington.edu Subject: Re: Emerald Eyes... -------- On Sat, 16 Apr 1994 piaw@cs.washington.edu wrote: > Among other things, it's finally been clear to me at an emotional > level that Moran's plotted out everything in advance... > Unfortunately, Emerald Eyes kinda spoils the suspense of who Denise is > going to be attached to for me, as I now know that she's going to be > attached to Ripper... Actually that was clear in tLR as she is mentionned once or twice as Denice Ripper. On p. 338, there's a quotation from The Exodus Bible by Melissa du Bois saying "With the certain exception of Denice Ripper..." I find that EE only makes sens on every level if one has read the two other books. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-17-94 *** **************** From: joel isaac singer To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dkm mailing list) Subject: Emerald Eyes -------- Carl may have been so different from the other telepaths because he was created "en masse" by the Name Storyteller, and not designed gene-by-gene by Suzanne Montigenet. Also, being the first, and the only one around for a fair amount of time, it wouldn't suprise me to know that he had been "experimented" on by the PKF for some years, which shouldn't help his sanity any. The clearest indication is that he didn't get absorbed into the Person the telepaths became just before the end. And I believe that _many_ things we don't really understand in Emerald Eyes will not become apparent until the 20th book or so down the line. Like the reference to the Name Storyteller possibly dying in a library around 3200, or why the weapon designed by the Lady Blue is so deadly. Joel Singer Stanford University jsinger@leland.stanford.edu -- "Gee, Brain, what are we gonna do tonight?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!" **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dkm mailing list) Subject: Letter to Bantam -------- After much Procrastinating, I finally got around to writing the letter below... I'll mail it to Bantam on Monday. Piaw ---------------- \documentstyle[regular-margins,11pt]{article} \begin{document} \noindent Dear Sir/Madam, I bought a copy of ``The Long Run'', by Daniel Keys Moran a couple of months back at a used bookstore. My first impression was: ``this is wonderful.'' My second thought was: ``why haven't I heard of Moran before? What else has he written?'' Being a graduate student of computer science, it was a simple matter for me to link to the internet and post my question on a bulletin board devoted to science fiction there. The reply arrived pretty quickly --- he'd written 4 other books, they were all out of print except ``The Last Dancer'', and there was an electronic mailing list devoted to discussions of his work. I bought ``The Last Dancer'', and loved it, and began a long arduous search for the rest of his books. I looked in used book store after used book store --- none of them had ``Emerald Eyes'', ``Armageddon Blues'' or ``The Ring.'' When I asked my name to be put down on their want-list, there was invariably at least one other person ahead of me on the list. My desperation increased a month later when I visited Berkeley and found ``The Ring'' and ``Armageddon Blues'' at high prices (which I gladly paid) but no ``Emerald Eyes.'' I resorted again to posting on the net asking for ``Emerald Eyes.'' Someone was able to produce a copy, and I again gladly paid the price requested, which included shipping from Canada. I am writing this to you to inform you that Daniel Keys Moran is a real find, and to request that you reprint his books if possible, and keep his current books in print. My brothers, my friends and I are now fighting over my tattered copies of ``Emerald Eyes'' and ``The Long Run'', and many of them have expressed a willingness to pay well above the standard paperback price for copies of his now out of print books, as have many others on the internet. \vskip 0.5in \noindent Sincerely, \vskip 0.5in \noindent Piaw Na \\ \noindent 4/16/94 \\ \noindent 5219 16th Ave NE, \\ \noindent Seattle, WA 98105-3414 \end{document} **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: the telepaths -------- b) i thought it was only "deep probes" that were painful. c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds really is. do we know that yet? (these books are the most re-readable books i have ever experienced). mike **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Nathan Dark-Clouds -------- > c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ > and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds > really is. do we know that yet? > In the background on the actual Long Run (The Speedfreaks) in EE, I think it said it was lead by a husband and wife, where the wife was executed and the hubby never found... Something made me think that was him. I don't remember exactly what... Anyone? > > mike > > **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu, patrick@cs.msstate.edu Subject: Re: Nathan Dark-Clouds Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >From: "Patrick G. Bridges" >Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 9:48:23 CDT > >> c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ >> and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds >> really is. do we know that yet? > >> >In the background on the actual Long Run (The Speedfreaks) in EE, I think it >said it was lead by a husband and wife, where the wife was executed and the >hubby never found... Something made me think that was him. I don't remember >exactly what... Anyone? Reread the part of TLR where Trent and Nathan meet and get to know each other. Nathan's Speedfreak history is explained somewhere in there. If I remember correctly, Trent comes to the conclusion that Nathan is the Speedfreak leader who got away. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: carol@vega.sidefx.com (carol wang) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: the telepaths -------- sef@kithrup.com writes: =- b) Carl says that reading minds is painful -- yet none of the telepaths =- ever show that. it's not the reading of minds that is painful, it is physical contact with non-telepaths (uncontrolled reading of non-tp?). this is demonstrated a couple of times. denise's "awakening" at the end of EE (don't touch me, it hurts). jany mc's contact with the sandoval (?? bad guy who used a snake to kill one of the telpaths) at a party. they explained that what caused the pain to the telepaths was the guilt that normal people experience. therefore the inconsistency is why denise doesn't suffer pain when touching all the people she does in tLD. trent actually asks her if it would hurt when meet in tLR but she says something along the lines of "you could never hurt me" sorta thing. the other people she touches are: ripper, the kid (oops, major memory loss), his sister, the other last dancer and the hunter. with none of these does she actually have any after-effects. carol **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu, carol@vega.sidefx.com (carol wang) Subject: the telepaths -------- >the other people she touches are: ripper, the kid (oops, major memory >loss), his sister, the other last dancer and the hunter. with none of >these does she actually have any after-effects. I assume you mean any *lasting* after-effects. I'd say that getting knocked out for several days after a "touch" would be a hell of an after-effect... (D'van's case) It's just odd to me that she didn't have the same thing happen with Sedon. Piaw "Oh with a mind that renders everything sensitive What chance do I have here? Put an end put an end Put an end to every dream..." --- Kate Bush, "Not this time" **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Hm... -------- So, can anyone suggest reasons why Denise didn't try to "change" David the way she did other humans? It would seem a better solution than killing him... Maybe it's because he's a telepath and can't be "changed"... Piaw Admiration: Our polite recognition of another's resemblance to ourselves. **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, piaw@cs.washington.edu Subject: Re: Hm... -------- > > So, can anyone suggest reasons why Denise didn't try to "change" David > the way she did other humans? It would seem a better solution than > killing him... > > Maybe it's because he's a telepath and can't be "changed"... > Well, there was Carl's quotethat went something like "You're better than they are...", which would have to rankle on David and Denice. Wouldn't he have to know that she was going to kill him (they are telepaths in full contact)? I assumed that he almost (or really) wanted to die... *Shrug* Patrick **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: dave@tso4a.can.cdc.com (dave weil) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Hm... -------- > > So, can anyone suggest reasons why Denise didn't try to "change" David > > the way she did other humans? It would seem a better solution than > > killing him... > Well, there was Carl's quotethat went something like "You're better than > they are...", which would have to rankle on David and Denice. > Wouldn't he have to know that she was going to kill him (they are telepaths in > full contact)? I assumed that he almost (or really) wanted to die... > *Shrug* I got the distinct impression that David wanted to die; didn't want to live any longer with what he'd become. And as for Denice going along with it - if you truly love someone, know what it is they most want because you can see into his/her head, and are able to fulfill that wish, are you going to deny him/her that? And as for "changing" David, well, he wouldn't be David anymore, would he? (Even assuming the "change" can overcome a wire-head addiction.) It startled me when I first read it, but now it seems marvelously apt. - Dave **************** *** 04-20-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Nathan Dark-Clouds -------- >Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 10:58:31 EDT >From: Mike Long > >>From: "Patrick G. Bridges" >>Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 9:48:23 CDT >> >>> c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ >>> and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds >>> really is. do we know that yet? >> >>> >>In the background on the actual Long Run (The Speedfreaks) in EE, I think it >>said it was lead by a husband and wife, where the wife was executed and the >>hubby never found... Something made me think that was him. I don't remember >>exactly what... Anyone? > >Reread the part of TLR where Trent and Nathan meet and get to know >each other. Nathan's Speedfreak history is explained somewhere in >there. If I remember correctly, Trent comes to the conclusion that >Nathan is the Speedfreak leader who got away. Nathan St. Denver, (Maria Alatorre was his wife), was the leader. Its in the last few pages of EE (Interlude: 2062-2069). By the way, here's an interesting tidbit for those who are interested in the Speedfreaks: >From The New York Times, Tuesday Apr. 12, 1994 (Science times, Q&A): Racing the Sun Q. What speed would you have to travel to keep the rising Sun forever on the horizon? A. Assuming a day of 25 hours and an amphibious vehicle driven westward at sea level along the 24,901 mile-long Equator, with no rest stops, traffic jams or other physical obstacles, a speed of 1,038 miles per hour [note: 1,661 kph] would do the job, said Dr. Neil D. Tyson, an astrophysicist at Princeton University and author of "Universe Down to Earth" (Columbia University Press). The local time zones would change from hour to hour, so it would always be the same time of day. The speed of Earth's rotation varies slightly with the seasons and othre factors and is gradually slowing a millisecond or so a century because of the tidal friction of the ocean against the shores, so the required speed can be ever so slightly slower or faster. --David "Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death" **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Several thoughts -------- Hello everyone! I've _finally_ managed to borrow a copy of _EE_ long enough to read it. I feel like maybe I understand things a little better now. As a result of my reading (and re-reading the other books), I've now got a few thoughts and some questions. In _EE_ note is made (I think during a conversation between Carl and Kalharri (sp? - I don't have the book to check)) that Carl has the ability to go for extended periods (like a couple of weeks) without sleeping, without it seriously affecting him. It is hinted (or guessed) that David and Denice may also have this ability. Has any sign of this shown up in anything since? How might it play a role in events? We see a bit more about the origins/position of Ripper...that he is an associate/protege of Belinda Singer. Without this reference, it had seemed like Ripper just appeared out of nowhere as a major character in _tLD_. (OK, ok...there is a _brief_ mention of him in _tLR_ in a news story, but that's it.) Gives me a different idea of what he may stand for, now that I know. We see several key events from the viewpoint of Name Storyteller, with some interesting implications just scattered all over the place. The Spacething Library? Camber just learning his abilities to move through time? A council of Zaradin beginning the Time Wars? Etc. These items led me to wonder - just what do we know about the motivations/goals of either Storyteller or Camber Tremodian? In _EE_ Storyteller is mostly busy keeping events flowing "correctly" (at least, correctly as he sees it), so that his ancestors don't fail to produce (eventually) him. But what is he really trying to achieve? Camber doesn't really seem out to stop Storyteller's future from coming to pass (I recall some sort of conversation between Camber and a minion (Robert?) where he makes it clear that Carl's death during the roadway sequence in _EE_ would have spared trouble later and not prevented the future because David and Denice had already been born.) On the other hand, would changes prevent Camber's future (as a nightface and UEI member)? What is the connection of the nightfaces and UEI, anyway? Storyteller mentions the three greatest nightfaces as being Camber, Lady Blue, and (? - can't recall the name). There's some implication that the nightfaces worked for/were part of UEI, yet he makes a statement that Lady Blue is never mentioned in UEI headquarters. Any ideas on this one, anybody? On the subject of the ending of _tLD_ (David dying with Denice doing the deed, so to speak), during my re-reading the poem/song fragment at the opening of _tLR_ struck me as being of interest. Anyway, this probably was rather chaotic. Lots of stuff percolating in my brain after reading _EE_ for the first time. Thanks for any feedback. Windsor **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Several thoughts -------- > We see a bit more about the origins/position of Ripper...that he is >an associate/protege of Belinda Singer. Belinda Singer was was around before the Unification, and apparantly has strong feelings about the USA. (She should have gotten together with Ring, too bad :).) Ripper, although born after the Unification, also has strong feelings about it (remember, he was a member of Congress). >Without this reference, it >had seemed like Ripper just appeared out of nowhere as a major >character in _tLD_. Don't forget that he also, apparantly, marries Denice, and that was stated in EE. >The Spacething Library? Yes. The Spacethings are inorganic, space-borne entities. Plasma or energy clouds, I guess. They have been around for a very long time. For some reason, humanity goes to war with them (_Lord November: The Man-Spacething War_). >Camber just learning his abilities to move through time? Yes. Storyteller probably had the same learning experience, unless he met with the Zaradin "earlier" than Camber did. >A council of Zaradin beginning the Time Wars? The Time Wars had something to do with the Envoy, it seems. Maybe they were trying to break out of this universe? >These items led me to wonder - just what do we know about the >motivations/goals of either Storyteller or Camber Tremodian? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Both think they are in the right, and each is trying to kill the other. Both are under some constraints and have certain goals (Storyteller can't endanger Denice, because he is descended from her, while Camber doesn't want to, since they were involved closely with his ancestry; he *can*, though, he thinks, if he needs to). Camber seems to have a great deal of anger towards the universe. We don't know why, yet. We will probably find out why when the Camber novels come out. (If?) >But what is he >really trying to achieve? That is debatable. As Storyteller himself says, there is not a lot of free will available to time travellers. Some things he does because he knows he's already done them, and he *has* to do them. >Camber doesn't really seem out to stop >Storyteller's future from coming to pass In EE, Camber, the one time he shows up, is relatively young, and is just trying to (it seems) kill Storyteller. Or maybe just Carl; I'd have to reread it to make sure. > What is the connection of the nightfaces and UEI, anyway? The nightfaces at UEI work as agents of some sort. Maybe asassins. >Storyteller mentions the three greatest nightfaces as being Camber, >Lady Blue, and (? - can't recall the name). There's some implication >that the nightfaces worked for/were part of UEI, yet he makes a >statement that Lady Blue is never mentioned in UEI headquarters. Any >ideas on this one, anybody? Yes. Lady Blue created so much death and destruction that her name was stricken from the records, and nobody talks about her anymore. There is that much associated with her. Sean. **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: josh kaderlan To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: Several thoughts -------- On Fri, 22 Apr 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > > >The Spacething Library? > > Yes. The Spacethings are inorganic, space-borne entities. Plasma or > energy clouds, I guess. They have been around for a very long time. > For some reason, humanity goes to war with them (_Lord November: > The Man-Spacething War_). > Where was this? I don't remember any previous mention of the Spacethings; I always figured the term referred to the Sleem. Not questioning your veracity, just wondering where I missed it. Josh **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Several thoughts -------- >> Yes. The Spacethings are inorganic, space-borne entities. Plasma or >> energy clouds, I guess. They have been around for a very long time. >> For some reason, humanity goes to war with them (_Lord November: >> The Man-Spacething War_). >Where was this? I don't remember any previous mention of the >Spacethings; I always figured the term referred to the Sleem. Not >questioning your veracity, just wondering where I missed it. Which part? The spacethings being inorganic, space-born entities, plasma or energy clouds I guess: I'd seen the reference in _Emerald Eyes_, and then a couple in DKM's timeline (Spacethings [7M BC], Lord November: the Man-Spacething War [2676-2682]), so I asked him about them, and he confirmed my guess: the spacethings are, well, things that live in space. They've been around for a very long time, obviously. Not as long as the Zaradin, I guess, but they're a very strange case. The Sleem are referred to seperately in the timeline; also, there is only one reference (I think) to the Sleem in all three novels, and that is _The Last Dancer_. Well, that's not true: we learn quite a bit about the Sleem in tLD, and we know that one of the Zaradin gods is a Sleem. But it's all in tLD, so I count that as a single reference :). Sean. **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Several thoughts -------- windsor writes: > On the subject of the ending of _tLD_ (David dying with Denice >doing the deed, so to speak), during my re-reading the poem/song >fragment at the opening of _tLR_ struck me as being of interest. Don't remember whether I posted this before or not --- think I did. Note that, as the song is written after _tLD_, it could refer to Denice and David, but seems more likely to refer to Trent. After all, she seems to have a crush on him, and he could practically be Named "Run Away". -Sol ps For those of you who don't have it handy, the song ends "[My love] ran into another life I guess he's running still" and is by Kutura. **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Envoy of Order and the Nameless One -------- Hello again everyone. I've been continuing my re-read of the books (since I finally got to read _EE_), and I've got a few more things I'm wondering about now. When Storyteller speaks with Trent (through his avatar Neil Corona), he describes the coming and binding of the Envoy of Order. Apparently the Serathin Gods are worried that Trent may be another such Envoy (or the same one? these time wars make me wonder), and Storyteller is warning Trent that if so, he will be opposed by the Great Gods. Except for Camber, the "renegade God of Players," who apparently could be assumed to be on the side of such an Envoy. Why would Camber, alone of the ten greater gods, side with Order? Could this have something to do with his Name (the scream of pain/rage which contains a name)? And if he has a name, why is he nameless? I know, I know, he just is...but he gives his name to Denice on the black plain (or whatever you want to call it), apparently feeling she _might_ understand it. Hmmm...any ideas here, people? I'm guessing that most of this is based on Camber's story, of how he became a God in the first place. He mentions to Denice that Sedon almost took his path (presumably the path of becoming a god) but did not...what is required for a person to be able to take that path? Innate power? Position in history? Time traveling ability (innate or not...we don't really know for sure)? Anyway, just speculating and thought I'd see if anybody had some thought on this stuff. Windsor **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: marcus eubanks To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent and the Flame. -------- Of course, whether Trent is another envoy or not, he's at least somewhat sensitive to the Flame. Remember the scene on the roof-top with Jimmy and Denise, where Denise speaks of *doing* something and then loses her temper. At some point in her monologue, Trent observes that she seems to be covered in sheets of blue flame. So not only is Trent able to see this, but Denise is already able to call the Flame to some extent. Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) Temple Med '96 Philadelphia, PA USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Which form do you fill out when a dead terrorist brings a hand-cuffed, SLUDding organophosphate victim in off the street?" **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: TLR, TLD and information -------- Case A: Sieur' Blain knows used Complex 8-A in the Peaceforcer Heaven. Yet the journalists, till Trent intervenes, do not. We could make a point that Blain has access to uncommon sources of information. If so, why give the info to the unknown Thomas Vera? This raises further questions on whether the PKF is full of information holes or impermeable as some pretend. Case B: Everyone knows that Trent has walked through a wall after the fact. This obviously signifies that the PKF is full of holes. What interest would they have in glorifying, even mythifying, their number 1 enemy? Issueing an APB saying: suspect can walk through walls:). Case C: Trent explains to Corona that Eddore does not want the PKF/Space Force on the halfway relay station because this will tip the Rebs and the Claw off. This gives more credibility to the thesis that the PKF is full of holes. Case D: Yet Vance is confident that only the PKF will know of Mirabeau's crimes by the end of TLD. Wishful thinking? Is Vance that naive? **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: TLR, TLD and information Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 14:00:41 -0400 (EDT) >From: "J.C. DuVal" >Case D: Yet Vance is confident that only the PKF will know of Mirabeau's >crimes by the end of TLD. Wishful thinking? Is Vance that naive? Did any PKF know of Mirabeau's crimes who were not Elite? (I can't remember, time to reread! :-) The regular PKF may be full of holes, but the Elite should be able to keep a secret better. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Division FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 04-27-94 *** **************** From: rsu@netcom.com (rodrick su) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, "j.c. duval" Subject: Re: TLR, TLD and information -------- On Apr 26, 2:00pm, "J.C. DuVal" wrote: } Case A: Sieur' Blain knows used Complex 8-A in the Peaceforcer Heaven. Yet } the journalists, till Trent intervenes, do not. We could make a point } that Blain has access to uncommon sources of information. If so, why give } the info to the unknown Thomas Vera? This raises further questions on } whether the PKF is full of information holes or impermeable as some pretend. Blain must have known about the Peaceforcer Heaven incident. The PKF are cracking down on the compond rather hard because of it. And Blain does not deal in legal substances. -- [ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ] [----------------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman'' ] [ rsu@netcom.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ] **************** *** 04-27-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, rodrick su Subject: Re: TLR, TLD and information -------- On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Rodrick Su wrote: > On Apr 26, 2:00pm, "J.C. DuVal" wrote: > } Case A: Sieur' Blain knows used Complex 8-A in the Peaceforcer Heaven. Yet > } the journalists, till Trent intervenes, do not. We could make a point > } that Blain has access to uncommon sources of information. If so, why give > } the info to the unknown Thomas Vera? This raises further questions on > } whether the PKF is full of information holes or impermeable as some pretend. > > > Blain must have known about the Peaceforcer Heaven incident. The > PKF are cracking down on the compond rather hard because of it. > And Blain does not deal in legal substances. > He would know the PKF were cracking down on it, but would he know why? The point that I am making is that while Trent's journey through Peaceforcer Heaven, the mayor Noah knows about it, must have been pretty much public knowledge, his use of Fadeaway was not, at least till the news conference. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: joseph martin scarr To: conttime Subject: Walking through walls... -------- I'm sure you all remember the scene where Trent walks through the wall of the Briefing Room on Luna. Phenomenal. Fantastic. Incredible. A fantastic scene -- well-executed. It had excellent reactions by the witnessing Peaceforcers -- not to mention a momentous description of the whole scene. And just enough clues to figure out how Trent walked through that wall in the Briefing Room on Luna. Any guesses? Touched by the Flame? Cut a hole in the wall and seamlessly reconstructed it? Or is Trent really a God/Player of supernatural ability? For the sake of maintaining the mysterium and legendary nature of this moment, I will warn you that what you will find after scrolling down a ways (to protect the 'ignorance is bliss' crowd) is a theory on how it all happened. You can choose not to read it and wait until Moran writes some book in the future where Vance is "questioned by his superiors [and] could not say exactly where the thought had come from." (all cites are from Daniel Keys Moran's The Long Run, Bantam Spectra 1989) which I hope Moran does because I'd like to know if I am right... We begin on page 320 where we are introduced to the Briefing Room. It is described as having a long oval table make of something resembling beechwood. It is at this point that Trent is being interrogated as Benny Gutierrez by a panel of PKF. I establish this point to assert that this is the same briefing room he walks through later. On page 325 Melissa DuBois escorts Trent to the same briefing room for further questioning. This room is cited as the same one where Trent had undergone the previous questioning. This is where the critical evidence lies for dispelling the belief that anything supernatural happened when Trent appeared to walk through the wall. Second paragraph: "It was completely dark except for the briefing room's holo projectors; ... The lasers were buried in the wall just above the point where the walls met the floor." Now, on pages 358-359 we encounter the walking-through-walls scene. "The wide double doors curled quietly aside. The lights inside were glaring, the glowpaint turned high. "Trent stood inside, on the other side of the long oval conference table, watching as the doors opened. "...without saying a word, and then simply nodded once, smiled, and turned away from Vance, turned his back on the Peaceforcers and their weapons and walked straight into the wall. "And through it. "The moment simply hung there. "And hung. Trent used the holo projectors to simulate his being there. Even on page 358 when Vance asks one of the Elite in the area if he observed Trent entering the room, the Elite responds: "We saw him through the doorway before he closed it." Note that the Elite did not respond: "Yes, we saw him _go in_" as Vance specifically asks. The Elite's response means he did not see Trent enter the briefing room, but only saw his appearance inside it. Vance should have picked this up. Oh well. You have to tell a good story. The good thing about Moran is that he doesn't cop out. So much for that. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls... Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) >From: Joseph Martin Scarr >I'm sure you all remember the scene where Trent walks through the wall of >the Briefing Room on Luna. Phenomenal. Fantastic. Incredible. >Any guesses? Touched by the Flame? Cut a hole in the wall and >seamlessly reconstructed it? Or is Trent really a God/Player of >supernatural ability? >For the sake of maintaining the mysterium and legendary nature of this >moment, I will warn you that what you will find after scrolling down a >ways (to protect the 'ignorance is bliss' crowd) is a theory on how it >all happened. I'll say HERE THERE BE SPOILERS, although I'm sure all of your have read TLR many times. I think your theory is correct in every way but one: I think Ralf was the one who set up the projectors, not Trent. Anything Trent had put into the system probably would have been hosed when the LINK went down. When did he have the time to set it up? Ralf, on the other hand, is in full control of all of the computers in the Farside base during Trent's escape. Setting up the holo would have been a trivial task for him. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer Analog Devices, SPD Division Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls... -------- Ralf for sure, since there is also the strong implication that Trent didn't know (at first) why the guards had left the airlock posts; Trent is sufficiently smart that had he set up a holograph he would have thought through the implications... (: W. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls... *SPOILERS*!!!! -------- This is yet another thing I mentioned to dkm, back when I was exchanging email with him. His response to my pointing out the theory that Ralf operated the holoprojectors was something like Yes, Vance figures that out and tells Trent just before he kills him. Moran *did not say* that this was true. He also implied that *Trent* never said what happened! It is deliberately ambiguous. Odds are that it was Ralf, but... in that universe, you don't take *anything* at face value. Sean. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: "mark l. williamson" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Walking thru walls -------- >>In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges >>it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. >However, when he finds out that Sedon has a higher price on his head than >Trent does, he says, "But I walked through a wall!" (And then the singer >says "But you said you didn't do that", I think, but I couldn't find it >in tLD so I'm not sure exactly what happens :).) >Sean. tLD page 163. Actually, she was responding to Trent when he said he had killed Peaceforcers Elite and blew up half of Peaceforcer Heaven. But right after that he goes on to claim that he did walk through a wall. However, Trent DOES have a reputation as a big time liar. I imagine that after a few years of getting asked about it, he decided to start taking credit (at least occasionally) for what was probably Ralfs work. -- Mark mlw@engr.latech.edu **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- moran commented on this some time ago...here's the msg: --- Article 12350 of rec.arts.sf.written: Path: s5!uunet!usc!cheshire.oxy.edu!mcws!techsys!pain!d_moran From: d_moran@pain.la.ca.us (Daniel Keys Moran) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Continuing Time Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 17:59:46 PDT Organization: Public Access Info Network (818/776-1447) Lines: 30 Simon Tong (stong@ariel) mentioned that people were arguing about this over here -- this being the damn wall again. Relax, okay? Think whatever you like about it. David Gerrold thought that Trent had walked through the wall (and was pissed that I hadn't set up Trent's ability to do so more thoroughly); Amy Stout, my former editor at Bantam who I love and who is one of the very nicest people I've ever met, decided instantly upon reading the mss. that Trent had never walked through the wall, that it was a holograph set up by Ralf the Wise and Powerful. All I'm really inclined to say about it is, I ain't saying. I will say that one argument I've been told about is incorrect. Trent did not cut through the wall with an emblade, and then display a holof of the wall over the hole in the wall. The wall was solid. So ... either Trent walked through the wall, or Ralf animated a holo of him walking through the wall. It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him. Whether that's a correct deduction or not, I ain't saying. Was told today by Betsy Mitchell at Bantam that "The Last Dancer" is scheduled for Fall '93. I wish it could be sooner, but it's out of my hands. However, next books in the series should come pretty quick on its heels. We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguing.... "There are no longer "dancers," the possessed. The cleavage of men into actors and spectators is the central fact of our times. We are obsessed with heroes who live for us and whom we punish . . . We have metapmorphised from a mad body dancing on hillsides to a pair of eyes staring in the dark." -- Jim Morrison, quoted in "The Last Dancer." **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- >In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges >it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. However, when he finds out that Sedon has a higher price on his head than Trent does, he says, "But I walked through a wall!" (And then the singer says "But you said you didn't do that", I think, but I couldn't find it in tLD so I'm not sure exactly what happens :).) Sean. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Walking through walls -------- In this scene Trent is also described as limping before and after the room, but not while he is purportedly in it. I consider this another hint... I also looked thru TLD once to find all the places I could where people meet Trent and say, "Did you really walk thru a wall?..." or something to that effect. In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. So I don't know of any case where Trent himself claims to have walked thru the wall. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: russell katz To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: New Person -------- I have been contacted by a Moran reader that wants to join this list. I have forgotten how to suscribe..... How do you suscribe to this list again? Russell Katz ************************************************************************* * The Crystal Wind is the Storm, * Daniel K. Moran: * Russell Katz * * and The Storm is Data, * "Emerald Eyes" * katzr@ucs.orst.edu* * and the Data is Life. * and * * * -The Player's Litany * "The Long Run" * * ************************************************************************* **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mace@lum.esd.sgi.com (rob mace) To: joseph martin scarr , conttime Subject: Re: Walking through walls... -------- > On page 325 Melissa DuBois escorts Trent to the same briefing room for > further questioning. > > ... > > Second paragraph: > > "It was completely dark except for the briefing room's holo > projectors; ... The lasers were buried in the wall just above the point > where the walls met the floor." > > > Now, on pages 358-359 we encounter the walking-through-walls scene. > > "The wide double doors curled quietly aside. The lights inside > were glaring, the glowpaint turned high. > "Trent stood inside, on the other side of the long oval > conference table, watching as the doors opened. > "...without saying a word, and then simply nodded once, smiled, > and turned away from Vance, turned his back on the Peaceforcers and their > weapons and walked straight into the wall. > "And through it. > "The moment simply hung there. > "And hung. > > > Trent used the holo projectors to simulate his being there. As others have pointed out it is more likely that Ralf was the one to use the holo projectors. I don't have the exact quotes/page numbers, but here is the gist. Shortly before this scene we find out that Ralf is pondering how too help Trent escape. So we know that Ralf is looking for a way to help and we also know that Ralf is in control of the complex's systems which should give him control of the holo projectors. Next when Trent reaches the air lock he is supprised to find it unguarded. He then remembers the shout of "We got him". I don't think he knew that he had just walked through a wall. Now for the problem I see with the theory. I included your two quotes because there is a fundamental difference in them. "It was completely dark except for..." and "The lights inside were glaring, the glowpaint turned high." Do the holo projectors in Moran's universe of this time work well in full light. And if so do they work well enough to fool a bunch of elites, with their special vision. And if they work well in full light why are the lights off in the first scene. I have not gone and checked to see what the state of the room lights are in other scenes with holo's. If you know of any please point them out. I still wonder if the holo explanation is red herring. Rob Mace **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: RE: Walking thru walls -------- ---------- | From: "Mark L. Williamson" | | >>In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges | >>it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. | | >However, when he finds out that Sedon has a higher price on his head than | >Trent does, he says, "But I walked through a wall!" (And then the singer | >says "But you said you didn't do that", I think, but I couldn't find it | >in tLD so I'm not sure exactly what happens :).) | | >Sean. | | tLD page 163. Actually, she was responding to Trent when he said he had | killed Peaceforcers Elite and blew up half of Peaceforcer Heaven. But | right after that he goes on to claim that he did walk through a wall. | However, Trent DOES have a reputation as a big time liar. I imagine that | after a few years of getting asked about it, he decided to start taking | credit (at least occasionally) for what was probably Ralfs work. | | -- | Mark | mlw@engr.latech.edu My take on this is that he's reacting more to the public image, and a feeling of what price somebody with his reputation (killed elites, walked thru a wall, etc) should command, even though he knows he didn't do half of the things he's reputed to have done. Jim **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: william lewis To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- > "But I walked through a wall!" I agree with . Trent is referring to his reputation, which need have little to do with his actual history. He is miffed that this Sedon character is demanding a higher bounty than he is. I seem to remember a scene early in tLR, or perhaps EE, in which Trent discovers that he's become well known and loved at the local law enforcement office (I forget which branch), and is *quite* pleased, almost gleeful, that he's being noticed. Later he reacts similarly to the appellation "Uncatchable". And he loves to show off: see the press conference on Luna. He's made a name for himself, and doesn't like being upstaged. For what it's worth, BTW, my immediate assumption upon reading tLR the first time was that the walking-though-walls was done with a holo. Not only did Moran carefully introduce the necessary equipment previously, but the scene isn't described in anything like the amount of detail that Trent's other exploits are. Compare it with his escape through the floor of his hospital room, the careful preparation he made for his escape through the accelerator, and so forth. I had originally thought that Trent had controlled it, but it makes more sense for it to have been Ralf, as others here have pointed out. As for the glowpaint being turned up in the final scene: I think this has less to do with whether DKM's holos work better in bright or dim light, and more to do with the fact that the projectors were originally described as glowing visibly in the dimly lit room earlier in the book. The light from the glowpaint might have swamped any stray emissions from the projectors, even from Elite eyes. All of the above is, of course, my opinion. Wim. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- well moran says that the wall was solid. so either trent walked through the wall or ralf animated trent walking through the wall (that is, trent was never in the room and everyone saw a holo of trent walking through the wall; note that in the scene, trent does not speak). i think trent walked through the wall. mike by the way, is there any hope at all that moran is at least getting copies of the traffic in this list? **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- Most of the theories about this scene seem to revolve around Ralf (or perhaps Trent himself) hacking the holoprojectors to show an image of himself walking through the wall. Just to bring up the question: Wouldn't people familiar with holograms (such as all the Peaceforcers Elite present in the room) be able to tell the difference between a hologram and a real image? Perhaps that's what gave the story such force - they *knew* that what they were seeing had not been faked. As for why Vance in the future gives fakery as the explanation he has worked out for himself - remember, he injured himself severely shortly before he sees the extraordinary event. Perhaps this, combined with the fact that so much time has passed, is what allows him, of all who were present, to come to this conclusion. Just a theory, o'course. Now, as to what *really* happened - Here's another theory: We know that there are time travelers who are very interested in the fate of the Castanaveras family. Perhaps it was such a one who set up the whole thing, using technology sufficiently advanced as to resemble magic. Come to think of it, maybe *Trent* learns to travel in time! Pulling that stunt off is something he would have to do anyway, and I'm sure he'd enjoy it immensely. --David "No, wait! Maybe he had a secret accomplice... :-) **************** *** 05-13-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Silly Nitpicking -------- Does anyone else's copy of "The Last Dancer" have a typo, where it says "Yu:nited Er Intelijens"? Obviously, its supposed to be a theta, not a psi. So who messed up? (pg 286) Can anyone place "The King of Corona"? It sounds familiar.I doubt that its any connection to Neil Corona - it takes place about two hundred years after his time (I may be reading too much into the brief story which mentions him)(pg374) Why didn't Tommy Ho/Richard Yo have his legs regenned - when he had 30 years to do it? Is the power of the House of November the ability to step outside oneself and manipulate others' minds/memory(as opposed to simple telepathy)? Is Daniel a relation of Denice? (If he's her son - why is he in Public Labor)? When does Denice marry Douglas Ripper? --David **************** *** 05-13-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Silly Nitpicking -------- >Does anyone else's copy of "The Last Dancer" have a typo, where it says >"Yu:nited Er Intelijens"? Obviously, its supposed to be a theta, >not a psi. So who messed up? (pg 286) I hadn't noticed. I don't read greek :). I figured what it was supposed to sound like, and just mentally corrected it. (Doncha just love SECDED?) >Can anyone place "The King of Corona"? It sounds familiar.I doubt that its >any connection to Neil Corona - it takes place about two hundred >years after his time (I may be reading too much into the brief story >which mentions him)(pg374) You may not be reading too much into him. Corona was a *legend* at one point, and he went back to Earth. It's quite possible that he participates in the upcoming revolution, and survives. And since interstellar travel is coming up soon, maybe, shomehow, he or a descendant gets a regency. (I wouldn't expect it of him, to be honest, given that he seems to be a rather loyal American.) >Why didn't Tommy Ho/Richard Yo have his legs regenned - when he had >30 years to do it? Not in his belief system? >Is the power of the House of November the ability to step outside oneself >and manipulate others' minds/memory(as opposed to simple telepathy)? I don't think so. What Denice does seems to be similar to what Carl had done at times, although not as powerful. But she believes herself to be more powerful than Carl was, and Carl was the most powerful telepath. Maybe the Novembers don't find themselves trying to merge into a group mind, the way the Castanaveras did. >Is Daniel a relation of Denice? (If he's her son - why is he in Public >Labor)? Daniel is Denice's son. As to why he's in Public Labor -- who knows? Maybe they get seperated, or maybe Denice dies in the revolution or the War Against the Sleem shortly thereafter. >When does Denice marry Douglas Ripper? Sometime before Daniel is born, I guess :). My guess would actually be either just before or after Denice and Douglas team up with Trent ("The Telepath, the Politician, and the Thief"). Sean. **************** *** 05-17-94 *** **************** From: "r. mccauley" To: continuing time mailing list Subject: Screenplay Info -------- Forgive me if this has been asked recently; I just joined the list a couple of weeks ago. Someone sent me a copy of the text file Moran wrote that includes the time line (thanks Erich!) and in it, Moran mentions that he is circulating a screenplay for *The Long Run* around Hollywood. He goes on to say that the screenplay is available for $80 ($40 of which goes to charity - either Rebuild L.A. or AIDS Project L.A., and the other $40 covers copying, handling and mailing costs) from his Van Nuys P.O. Box. My questions are: * Is this offer still valid? * Is the P.O. Box address still good? * Has anyone else gotten a copy? How was it? * Does anyone have a more current e-address for Moran than the dmoran@batpad.lgb.us.ca address? I'm really eager to get a copy of this screenplay. *The Ring* was just an adapted screenplay, and I liked it almost as much as his Continuing Time stuff. If anyone can help me this (and if it isn't terribly old news) I'll report back on the screenplay. Thanx! R. McCauley **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: while I was in the bookstore today -------- someone called and started asking about DKM books. The owner mentioned that the publisher seems to *never* reprint out-of-print books (something I hadn't known, so it seems grim :(). On my advice, she told the guy to try calling Dark Carnival in Berkeley to get a copy of _The Ring_. She doesn't know when his next book may be coming out, though :(. Sean. **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: while I was in the bookstore today -------- Talked to a contact at Bantam-Spectra (an editor). She says that they are considering reprinting the early books, contingent on the sales of the new one that going to be printed "soon." Quoted the chances at about 50-50. So it isn't as bleak as all that, especially if everyone buys the new one. --- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: andrew mccoll To: continuing-time@umich.edu, joshua kronengold Subject: Re: while I was in the bookstore today -------- On Wed, 18 May 1994, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Talked to a contact at Bantam-Spectra (an editor). She says that they > are considering reprinting the early books, contingent on the sales of > the new one that going to be printed "soon." Quoted the chances at > about 50-50. How bout an address for this editor we could arrange a mail in. American companies are supposed to be very concerned about consumer pressure. Skippy PS an email address would be even better :> skippy@lethe.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia "That which does not kill us Perth, Western Australia Must have missed." **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: while I was in the bookstore today -------- Don't know if she'd like that, but I'll talk to her (don't know if she's on the net; know here through a BBS). --- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 06-01-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: From the beginning of _The Armageddon Blues_ -------- What follows is not accurate. It is not truth. It is ... elegant. Compare that with Storyteller's assertion that Truth is for Historians (and note that we do have a Name Historian [whatever *that* means], and Trent talks to him), and that his lot is better, for he is a Storyteller. Coincidence? Sean. **************** *** 06-02-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: _The Armageddon Blues_ -------- I just finished rereading it. Probably the fifth or sixth time I've done so. Wow. Damn it, Moran is *GOOD*. Sean. **************** *** 06-02-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Georges Mordeaux and the Envoy -------- Georges is described as the Enemy of Entropy. The Zaradin are Chaos, and on the entropy side of the Great Wheel of Existance. The Chained One (aka the Envoy) is on the opposite side. Is Georges another Envoy? Will he figure in the unchaining of the Chained One? (Okay, so it's not really related to the Continuing Time... :)) Sean. **************** *** 06-14-94 *** **************** From: mfitz@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com (mike fitz) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Emerald Eyes and The Long Run -------- I went looking for The Armageddon Blues this weekend and came away with copies of Emerald Eyes and The Long Run (both of which I already have). I'm offering them to anyone who wants them. I would prefer to trade for The Armageddon Blues. E-Mail me if you're interested. Mike **************** *** 06-14-94 *** **************** From: dubois@hydrogen.geoworks.com (paul dubois) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Emerald Eyes and The Long Run -------- Curiously enough, I went browsing the used-books section this weekend and noticed a copy of The Long Run at Black Oak Books in Berkeley (Shattuck and... Vine?). Apologies for the wide distribution :) >>>>> Mike Fitz writes: > I went looking for The Armageddon Blues this weekend and came away with > copies of Emerald Eyes and The Long Run. **************** *** 06-17-94 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Moran's preoccupations Reply-To: ap007@Freenet.HSC.Colorado.EDU -------- Have you noticed that Moran consistently fixes on certain features for metaphors and accessories in his stories? 1) Eyes. In AB, the ken Selvren's silver eyes can detect radia- tion, see smaller segments of time, and expand their pupils immensely in size (& maybe see IR, but I was never sure). In the Continuing Time, there are the green eyes of the Castana- veras telepaths (EE, of course) which can see IR, the slitted cat's eyes of the de Nostri, no-pupil black Kabhyr eyes, con- tacts and makeup keys to change eye color, Trent's tragically normal blue eyes, and even the Orbital Eyes of the DoD in the past in EE. Somebody likes eyes. 2) The long run. Of course, there's Trent's, and the many Long Runs, including the last one, organized by the Speedfreaks. But in AB, on p.14, Jalian "turned & began the long run back to the Clan House" to report a building on the Big Road, & on p. 45, she "slowly, falteringly, began the long run that would take her to its end." (The -entropy timeline, that is.) Moran also is interested in the French, music, hackers\nets\AIs, and nukes...and probably a few things I haven't noticed yet. What do you think it all means, she said, trying to sound like an English teacher. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu Marta Fitzgerald and Rush Limbaugh --- She flamed her way into his heart! **************** *** 06-28-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Corona, King of -------- Just thought I'd mention that I found the reference I was looking for a while back. The words "King of Corona" kept running through my head to tune of a song fragment. I finally found l book of lyrics by Paul Simon, and there it was, part of the song "Me and Julio down by the Schoolyard": "...goodbye Rosie, the Queen of Corona...". Anyone know what that means? The only other reference to 'Corona' as a proper name was in a SF story of the same name by Samuel Delany. -- David S. **************** *** 06-28-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Corona, King of -------- Just thought I'd mention that I found the reference I was looking for a while back. The words "King of Corona" kept running through my head to tune of a song fragment. I finally found l book of lyrics by Paul Simon, and there it was, part of the song "Me and Julio down by the Schoolyard": "...goodbye Rosie, the Queen of Corona...". Anyone know what that means? The only other reference to 'Corona' as a proper name was in a SF story of the same name by Samuel Delany. -- David S. **************** *** 06-30-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: I just finished _The Long Run_ again -------- Damn, DKM can write well. Okay, does anybody have bantam's phone number? I wanna call and see if I can find out when another book is coming out. Sean. **************** *** 07-07-94 *** **************** From: kestrel To: continuing-time@umich.edu (continuing time mailing list) Subject: Detailed Timeline -------- I am interested in where I can obtain a detailed timeline covering the events in Emerald Eyes, The Long Run, and The Last Dancer (only the parts dealing with 'modern' times - not parts in the far past or future). If anyone could tell me where I could obtain such a document, I would be grateful. Casey McGirt -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ |kestrel@decster.uta.edu | "I did the math, Vance. It works." | |Casey McGirt | -Trent | |AKA Kestrel | | ------------------------------------------------------------------ **************** *** 07-07-94 *** **************** From: michael burrage To: kestrel , dkm mailing list Subject: Re: Detailed Timeline -------- On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Kestrel wrote: > I am interested in where I can obtain a detailed timeline covering > the events in Emerald Eyes, The Long Run, and The Last Dancer (only the > parts dealing with 'modern' times - not parts in the far past or > future). If anyone could tell me where I could obtain such a document, > I would be grateful.=20 > =09=09=09=09Casey McGirt=20 =09I posted this a while back, and since then have heard that I got=20 Trents birthday wrong, but have not yet had a chance to check it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Here is a timeline of the events in Emerald Eyes, and the Long Run: =09I also have compiled descriptions of some items from the book as=20 a first step to using them in a role-playing game. I have not yet had=20 the time to go back through the Last Dancer and update the timeline. =20 Lastly I did a sort of family tree for `project superman'. THE CONTINUING TIME: the fall of the Americain Empire 2011 RING is programed. 2014 Sarah Almundsen (1969-2023ish) becomes Secretary General of the United Nations. With French and Chinese support she assumed control of the orbital laser weaponry, formed the United Nations Peace Keeping Force (PKF), and declared the United Nations, under her "Charter of Principles," the sole legal government of Earth. China and France both signed on, followed by Brazil, and by the end of the year two thirds of the world acknowledged United Nations rule. Three notable exceptions were the United States, the Soviet Union, and Japan. The Soviet Union is 'carved up' with orbital lasers and tactical nukes. Japan is subjugated with a full scale nuclear strike. 2016 The Unification War reaches America. 2018 (summer) the Treaty of New York 2019 Spacebase One "Peaceforcer Heaven" is constructed by a consortium of SpaceFarer Companies known as the L-5 Development Co. 2024 Suzanne Montignet graduates from the College of the Camden Protectorate with high honors in genetics. 2025 The PKF assumes control of, and expands Spacebase One. The SpaceFarer's Collective maintains its independence of the United Nations. 2030 (sep. 18) Carl Castanaveras is born. He is the first success of 'project superman' under Suzanne Montignet and Malko Kalharri. This success was engineered by a time traveling descendant of his. Carl was mentally unstable. 2035 (apr. 18) Jane McConnell born (using clone technique) 2036 (late) Johann MacArther brought to term 2037-42 Six more "genies" brought to term. The 'project superman' genies are slightly stronger, have a greater endurance, abnormal speed, infrared reception, faster reflexes, and are genetically perfect. The de=FFNostri genies (human-cougar hybrids) are much stronger humanoid cats. 2040 Darryl Amnier becomes Prosecutor General to the Unification Council. 2042 Carl hits puberty, and becomes a telepath. He let Unification Councillor Jerril Carson know. By '45 Carl has put a scare into Carson (who by then was the Chairman of the Unification Council to supervise the Bureau of Biotechnology Research) who caused the death of Shana de Nostri. 2046 Spacebase one begins processing PKF Elite at a rate of approximately fifty candidates every six months. 2047 (early) Jane hits puberty, she has the gift too. 2048 Carson becomes chairman of the Peace Keeping Force Oversight Committee in the Unification Council. Suzanne Montignet is removed as head of "Project Superman." The first Official Secrets Act is passed. Forty- three Castanaveras children are brought to term. 2049 Seventy-three Castanaveras children brought to term. The colony on Ganymede is destroyed. 2050 Eighty-six Castanaveras children are brought to term. 2051 Twenty-five Castanaveras children are brought to term. Among them is Trent, born May 9. The assembly-line program to produce telepaths for the Peaceforcers is terminated. 2052 Amnier becomes Secretary General of the United Nations. 2053 Twins, David and Denice Castanaveras, are born to Carl and Jane. 2054 The second Official Secrets Act is passed. 2060 Spacebase One is again expanded by the PKF. 2062 EMERALD EYES: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D March 8 Eighth Amendment to the Statement of Principles is passed, it frees the genies (telepaths and de Nostri) March 9 Carl audits Gerold McKann's story on the Genie Bill. Peace Keeping Staff Sergeant Emile Garon begins to go after Trent a.k.a. Ralf the Wise and Powerful. Carl and the telepath elders meet with private corporations (Belinda Singer, Tio Sandoval, Marc Packard, Randall Getty Cristofer, and Francis Xavier Chandler) to discuss employment. The telepaths could read minds, look inside closed objects or behind closed doors, find oil with 100% confidence in little time, manipulate small objects from dice to subatomic particles. Assuming a knowledge of physics one could induce hydrogen to fuse. March 10 Carl buys a Chandler MetalSmith Mark III. May-June The Unification Council continues to harass the telepaths. Carl meets with F. X. Chandler. Trent is not a Telepath, but he is possibly the best player, his image is Ralf. Trent goes to live with Suzanne. June 15 Emile Garon leaves Earth to become a PKF Elite. June 22 McKann interviews Carl a second time. June 23 McKann is killed by Peaceforcers in an attempt to frame Carl. Althea dies of a snakebite while in the employ of Sandoval. June 27 Carl, Jacqueline de Nostri, and ex-PKF Elite Chris Summers move on Sandoval, get him to confess to killing Althea at Councillor Carson's request. Assassination attempt on Carl and Malko. Success prevented by Carl's time traveling descendant Chauki November. July 3 The twins are kidnapped by Carson. Malko is killed as Trent and Suzanne are arrested. Suzanne kills herself while in PKF custody. Crowds storm the Chandler Complex and many are killed before the stun field comes on-line. Telepath children repel Peaceforcers with their lives. RING frees Trent. Carl goes after Carson. PKF Elite Sergeant Mohammed Vance orders a tactical nuclear strike on the Chandler Complex. As their dying act the telepaths destroy the minds of a quarter of the population of the state of New York. Carl kills Carson as he dies from a wound inflicted by Carson, David and Denice kill Carson's Peaceforcers and escape. An Elite dies as Trent escapes. Secretary General Darryl Amnier commits suicide. The Peaceforcers consolidate patrols to the area around Capitol City and Manhattan. This leaves the rest of the city to the underfunded and underequipped American Police allowing it to degenerate into the fringes, hiding Trent. 2063 Charles Eddore becomes Secretary General. The Unification Council outlaws manually operated vehicles. The speedfreaks hold a protest long run and are slaughtered by a storm over the Atlantic, the survivors are executed for treason. Emile Garon returns, a PKF Elite, in September. 2064 The Fizzle War, Eddore has Space Force shoot down a SpaceFarer flagship over Free Luna, then backed down from full scale war. The full- blown Gift of the House of November unfolds in Denice Castanaveras. 2060's Over the decade SpaceFarer technology becomes more common, monofilament fineline and room temperature superconductor become everyday reality, and over half a million people become juice junkies. 2068 (December) Trent and company leave the fringes for the patrol sectors. 2069 THE LONG RUN: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D January Trent, Jamos "Jimmy" Ramirez, Jodi Jodi, and bird set themselves up at Kandel Microelectrics Sales and Repair Shop. April 30 During an attempted boost of CallyTronics Trent bumps into Denice just before being arrested. Emile Garon is there. He is later released by the gendarmes, and finds out that Police Chief of New York City, Maxwell Devlin, is a Johnny Reb. Summer the Tau-Ceti probe sends back images of two Earth-like planets and a large orbital facility. see pages 66-69 August 8 Three Peaceforcers led by PKF Elite Emile Garon arrest Trent on various charges. They hold him for four days, and question his identity. August 13 Very early in the morning Denice and Jimmy break Trent out of holding, beginning the Long Run. 2088 Processing of PKF Elite is moved to Spacebase fourteen at Saturn. 2094 F. X. Chandler dies. 2103 Spacebase One is destroyed in the Peaceforcer Rebellion. 3018 Alternities Press, CU:110.00 Zaradin, publishes the Name Historian's Looking Backwards From the Year 3000. ITEMS and OTHER THINGS: Chandler MetalSmith Mark III Emerald Eyes page 91 hovercar (10-40 cm above ground) circa 2060's outer skin may change color as owner desires canopy, hinge forward soft brown leather interior seats 4 (6 if friendly) top speed 440 kph (with six seventy kilo occupants) six fans underneath for ground effect row of three rear turbojets for flight retractable wings (skips at 180 w/wings, 220 w/o) airscoop and rocket brakes airscoop fed ramjets for flight stabilize with wings and fans driver optional gyroscope system (hard to flip over) carcomp w/ infochip and 260-page printed manual class C autopilot Excalibur Series Two Emerald Eyes page 147 dual frequency short laser rifle circa 2053 Maser - semicoherent beam for close-up antipersonnel work. It can fry a small roomful of people almost as fast as a with a true flamethrower, and it is much more portable. Against delicate electronics or flesh, or any object with a reasonable degree of water in its makeup, it was as lethal as an auto shot--and lasted longer in an all-out firefight. Against waldos the maser is less efficient. X-laser - true coherent laser, emitting a continuous, invisible beam of X rays. Almost nothing can halt the X-laser; the beam slices through metal and flesh, stone and water, with equal efficiency. PKF Elite Emerald Eyes pages 138,205 Cyborg. The Long Run page 22 While the subject is still young, under thirty-five, he is taken to Spacebase One at L-5, Peaceforcer Heaven where the Peaceforcers Elite were created. Surgery that was impossible under the crushing 9.80 meters per second squared acceleration of Earth was just barely feasible when performed in the free fall of L-5. Peaceforcer gengineers and surgeons had taken him and changed him; injected him with transform viruses designed to strengthen his muscles, to speed his neural reactions by better than forty percent. Changed by the transform viruses, doubly changed by surgery and cyborging; his eyes (which can sample at over a thousand times a second) were not real, nor his skin. He would see in infrared and ultraviolet as easily as a normal human distinguished between blue and green. Beneath his right shoulder blade was a power source good for six months. A secondary nerve network laced itself through the first, fused itself to that which a human was born with; the network and all of the Elite hardware it controlled was controlled in turn by a combat computer implanted at the base of his skull. Carbon- ceramic filaments wound themselves through and around his muscles, joints, and ligaments, reinforcing the bones; this, the direct work of the transform viruses, enabled the Elite to withstand acceleration that would have quickly killed any normal human. Threads of room-temperature superconductor were woven into his skin; he would barely notice most lasers. His skin would turn a knife, and his hair would not burn. There was a multifrequency radio in his head, and he had a laser built into his right forearm. He weighs in the neighborhood of 200 kg. Some also have an inskin at their left temple. Trent's place The Long Run pages 21,43-50 Suzanne Malko Montignet - + - Kalharri | 'Project Superman' | +----------+-----+----------+----------+--------+ | | | | | |'30 |'35 |'36 |'37-'42 |-'48 (43) Carl Jane Johann Six more |-'49 (73) Castanaveras -+- McConnell MacArther Genies |-'50 (86) | |-'51 (24+) +------------+-+ | |'53 |'53 '30 Trent David Denice Douglass Castanaveras Castanaveras Castanaveras -+- Ripper, Jr. | +------------+ | _____ _____ Ripper -+- November | +------+ | Daniel November | |3000 Chauki Chamber November Tremodian =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Michael J. Burrage (michael.burrage@uvm.edu) (mburrage@moose.uvm.edu) _____..---=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+*+=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D---.._____ ______________________ __,-=3D'=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D____ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _____=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D`=3D (._____________________I__) - _-=3D_/ `---------=3D+=3D--------' / /__...---=3D=3D=3D=3D'---+---_' `------`---.___ - _ =3D _.-' `--------' **************** *** 07-07-94 *** **************** From: james millar To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dkm mailinglist), kestrel@decster.uta.edu (kestrel) Subject: Re: Detailed Timeline -------- > > I am interested in where I can obtain a detailed timeline covering > the events in Emerald Eyes, The Long Run, and The Last Dancer (only the > parts dealing with 'modern' times - not parts in the far past or > future). If anyone could tell me where I could obtain such a document, > I would be grateful. > Casey McGirt Speaking of such things, upon re-reading tLD I noticed that at the end in 'About the Author' Ameggedon Blues is described as a continuing time novel. I haven't read it, could something please tell me if the link is real, or tenuous (eg that funny little circle at the back of tLD). ta - James. **************** *** 07-08-94 *** **************** From: kestrel To: continuing-time@umich.edu (continuing time mailing list) Subject: Personal Protection Systems -------- First off, I'd like to thank those that sent the timelines and other info. I've merged the Emerald Eyes/The Long Run timeline I was given with the one I had been working on, and it's turned out pretty good. The list of items and other stuff was also interesting, and I added a couple to the list (Hunting Waldo - needs a description and armament, though; Tytan NN-II AI Nerve Net). Now, on to the question of the day. I recently went over the section in TLR that refers to Master Timothy's Personal Protection System. It gives a very rough description, and I was wondering if anyone had any theories on what a PPS actually it, either their own views, or perhaps even from DKM himself? Finally, I've been piecing together the necessary components for a RPG game set in the Emerald Eyes era of the Continuing Time, and was wondering if any special permission is necessary to run the game as an event in a convention? I know that Bantam has the rights, but do copyright laws apply in this case, particularly since I'm just using background, rather than quoting material, etc. Well, that's about it. I may be running over old threads, here, but they're all new to me, so ANY discussion would be interesting to read, and I await your replies. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ |kestrel@decster.uta.edu | "I did the math, Vance. It works." | |Casey McGirt | -Trent, 'The Long Run' | |AKA Kestrel | | ------------------------------------------------------------------ **************** *** 07-15-94 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Upcoming Books? -------- Hi all- Well, it was stated both in a faq I got off this list shortly after TLD came out, and at the end of TLD there should be -3- new CT novels out this fall, Lord November: The Man Spacething War, and two new Trent novels. So, does anyone know if this is still accurate, and if so, when and in what order this (much to be hoped for) cornocopia of CT stuff will show up. Also, anyone know if it will be hardcover or paperback? -Heron jsnead@netcom.com "We are born broken; life is healing" -DKM **************** *** 07-15-94 *** **************** From: "steven miale" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: FAQs and archives -------- Where are they kept (if there are any)? Thanks, Steve **************** *** 07-16-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: great quote from _The Last Dancer_ -------- "Some of the equations get -- silly." -- Holtzman, page 73 Sean. **************** *** 07-17-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: another interesting bit from tLD -------- Had [Dvan] received the full instruction of a Keeper, or a Dancer, he might have indeed learned something [from watching the spacelace tunnels], as the Zaradin had learned, three and a half billion years prior. -- Storyteller, page 280 Hm. A bit tantalizing, isn't it? :) Sean. **************** *** 07-18-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: another interesting bit from tLD Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA -------- >Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 18:13:56 -0700 >From: Sean Eric Fagan > >Had [Dvan] received the full instruction of a Keeper, or a Dancer, he might >have indeed learned something [from watching the spacelace tunnels], as the >Zaradin had learned, three and a half billion years prior. > > -- Storyteller, page 280 > >Hm. A bit tantalizing, isn't it? :) > >Sean. If you can, get a 2/84 Asimov's and read "The Gray Maelstrom". The main character in that story definitely learned something from being thrust into the universe of gray spheres & lines that contains the spacelace tunnels. A tantalizing story in itself, more so when combined with the quote above. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer (PGP 2.6 public key available) Analog Devices, CPD Division Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 07-18-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, mike long Subject: Re: another interesting bit from tLD -------- On Mon, 18 Jul 1994, Mike Long wrote: > If you can, get a 2/84 Asimov's and read "The Gray Maelstrom". The > main character in that story definitely learned something from being > thrust into the universe of gray spheres & lines that contains the > spacelace tunnels. A tantalizing story in itself, more so when > combined with the quote above. > -- > Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com > VLSI Design Engineer (PGP 2.6 public key available) > Analog Devices, CPD Division > Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); This is probably a FAQ but is there an index of DKM stories published in magazines? **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 07-18-94 *** **************** From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, mike long , "j.c. duval" Subject: RE: another interesting bit from tLD -------- >This is probably a FAQ but is there an index of DKM stories published in >magazines? this is what DKM told me about two years ago... " Published stuff -- three short stories in Asimov's, the four novels, the ffifth novel coming, one short story ("Given the Game") in the December 91 issue of Aboriginal SF. That's it. Hope this helps." _______________________________________________________________ Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises=81 / dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: "glowpaint" -------- On "Beyond 2000" right now, there is a little segment about a type of paint that generates heat when electricity is passed through it. ("exothermic paint," real original :).) I guess glowpaint isn't as wild a thought as I'd originally thought. Sean. **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- I just got off the phone with Bantam's publicity department. There are NO books on their schedule to be published by Daniel Keys Moran through the end of '94. She suggested I try again closer to the spring. I am devestated! This just *ISN'T FAIR*! :( Sean. **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: "mike rosenberg" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- is there some way we can get some kind of word to or from dkm to find out what's going on? mike On Jul 19, 2:52pm, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > Subject: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* > I just got off the phone with Bantam's publicity department. > > There are NO books on their schedule to be published by Daniel Keys Moran > through the end of '94. She suggested I try again closer to the spring. > > I am devestated! This just *ISN'T FAIR*! > > :( > > Sean. >-- End of excerpt from Sean Eric Fagan **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: steven miale To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- > I just got off the phone with Bantam's publicity department. > > There are NO books on their schedule to be published by Daniel Keys Moran > through the end of '94. She suggested I try again closer to the spring. I'm getting tired of this Bantam cr*p. They won't reprint any of his older books and don't seem to like printing his new ones. Who do we call and/or write? Steve **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- >I'm getting tired of this Bantam cr*p. They won't reprint any of his older >books and don't seem to like printing his new ones. Who do we call and/or >write? You seem to be under the assumption that they *have* his books to print (new ones, that is). They may not. I did not ask that, since I did not expect the publicity department to know. I would love to talk to his editors, but I don't know who they are or how I would find out. DKM lives in SoCal. There is a Daniel Moran listed for Los Angeles, but that is not him (I just called, I hate doing that :(). I sent a letter to him a while back, c/o Bantam, but never got a response (I'd even included a SASE). Someone could try calling Bantam and trying to find out who DKM's editor(s) is/are, and finding out what the story is. Or trying to find out his number in SoCal. (He is, according to tLD, living with his sisters. Who might or might not be married.) *sigh* This really has ruined my entire day. Sean. **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- Arg, I meant to give Bantam's number: Bantam Books (212) 354 6500 That's in New York City. You have to ask for Bantam , since it serves for several different publishers. Sean. **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: kestrel To: continuing-time@umich.edu (continuing time mailing list) Subject: Writing Bantam -------- Does Bantam have a representative on the Internet, or an address to email? I think we could throw enough mail at them to make them consider releasing DKM's stuff... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ |kestrel@decster.uta.edu | "I did the math, Vance. It works." | |Casey McGirt | -Trent, 'The Long Run' | |AKA Kestrel | | ------------------------------------------------------------------ **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- Hey, look; the guy write's pretty slow; he's allways done so. And, after all, he just moved. --- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- Actually, he lives in NYC, now. --- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 07-20-94 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- Damn, and I -just- reread _TLR_ in preparation for the release of the new books. It sounded like they were already written from the tone of the notice in the back of tLD. In fact, given that there were _3_ novels coming out soon I'd be almost certain that at least one of them was already written (after all, 3 novels in one year is a bit much to expect). Perhaps they are just delayed, the notice said early fall, perhaps January? If anyone can find out if said books are actually written or not we will have much more info to go one. Annoyed but still hopeful- -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 07-21-94 *** **************** From: mfitz@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com (mike fitz) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: no forthcoming DKM books *waaaah* -------- >Damn, and I -just- reread _TLR_ in preparation for the release of the new >books. It sounded like they were already written from the tone of the >notice in the back of tLD. In fact, given that there were _3_ novels >coming out soon I'd be almost certain that at least one of them was >already written (after all, 3 novels in one year is a bit much to >expect). Perhaps they are just delayed, the notice said early fall, >perhaps January? If anyone can find out if said books are actually >written or not we will have much more info to go one. > When DKM posted a CT timeline almost two years ago he said that they (Bantam) wanted to have the next book written and in hand before they would publish tLD. I forget now (the post is at home) which book it was he had written. Either Man Spacething War or the first AI War book. If this is true, then it seems like Bantam may have two of his books in hand, since I'm sure he's been writing for the past 2 years. I have no idea why they haven't published them. DKM also 'promised' that there would never be another delay as long as the one between tLR and tLD. Mike **************** *** 07-22-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: DKM stories -------- >This is probably a FAQ but is there an index of DKM stories published in >magazines? We don't have a FAQ list yet, and there's so little traffic that any reasonable questions are welcome. I'm not sure this one's ever been asked before, but there is an answer . . . . (note that "I" below is me, Sol) "All the Time in the World", Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine (IAsfm), May 1982. This is an early version of the first section of AB, with an added bit in the far future. "The Gray Maelstrom", IAsfm, February 1983. Not sure exactly how this connects to CT. I didn't find it particularly memorable. [Mike says "It gives some more detail on what the Flame people know as the spacelace tunnels; in fact, the description of the lines and spheres in LD looks like it was cut-and-pasted from this story."] "Realtime", IAsfm, August 1984. (Cowritten with Gladys Prebehalla.) This is a sequel of sorts to AB. The main charcter is a Praxcelis, and many of the cyberpunk terms and ideas later to show up in the Continuing Time appear here. At least one mention of the Walks-Far Empire. I love this story. (See reference near the top of the chart/map at the end of LD.) plus the novels, which I think everyone know . . . Armageddon Blues, 1988. (April 1988 according to the front of my copy. This strikes me as wrong --- I think I bought my copy for half price at a used bookstore in April 1988.) Indirectly related to the Continuing Time (again, see the chart/map in LD), and an excellant book in its own right. Emerald Eyes, 1988. The Ring, 1988. Based on a movie script by somebody or the other; that, in turn, was loosely based on the Ring of the Nibelung. Very loosely connected to AB; the tribe (Silvereyes?) from there shows up. Published only in hardcover. The Long Run, 1989. The Last Dancer, 1993. Plus Dann mentions a story in Aboriginal SF. Has anyone seen that? (Next time I'm in A^2 I'll search the used bookstores.) -Sol **************** *** 07-22-94 *** **************** From: jon leech To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM stories -------- > Armageddon Blues, 1988. (April 1988 according to the front of my > copy. This strikes me as wrong --- I think > I bought my copy for half price at a used > bookstore in April 1988.) > Indirectly related to the Continuing Time (again, see the > chart/map in LD), and an excellant book in its own right. Just what *is* the relation? Is the CT the alternate timeline that arose in the aftermath of AB? Jon __@/ **************** *** 07-24-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Whee, I read stories today! SPOILERS HERE! -------- I took the list that Solomon sent out to a library I finally found that had enough back issues of IASFM. (Most of them around here only went back a decade :(.) I read "Gray Maelstrom," "All the Time in the World," and "Realtime." GM is nice. DKM also apparantly likes that story about the djinn that de Nostri remembers in _The Last Dancer_ 8-). It offers some... interesting possibilities about the Serathin -- and makes me wonder, again, about Storyteller's version of the creation of the universe. I'd wanted to read this one because it dealt so much with the spacelace, hoping it gave some insight into tLD. It did, but not much. (I *think* the patterns in the spacelace are, in some way, indications about the real world. Or control it in some fashion...) (And maybe this is where the Great Gods of the Zaradin Church come from?) AtTitW is *not* as good as _The Armageddon Blues_, except in one respect: it gives an idea of what *happens* afterwards. tAB doesn't (I mean, we know that The Big Crunch doesn't happen, and Georges becomes something *else*, but what, and what happens to the world afterwards?). I got the feeling, however, that the story was not really what he wanted to tell -- the narrator described the sound of an atomic explosion in reverse, but how did it know that? Also: DKM was 19 when he sold it to IASFM, and working as a busboy. "Realtime" is also interesting. It's apparantly set in the same timeline as AtTitW, but something is not quite right. It was cowritten with someone else, so that could explain it. I also have a problem with the Walks-Far Empire -- maintaining an interstellar empire would be difficult enough, let alone a cross-timeline empire... but it's mentioned only in passing, so may not count :). I have now read all but *one* story published by DKM. I am a happy camper. Sean. **************** *** 07-25-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Idle thoughts..:) -------- This is pure sophistry...but hey I'm bored. 1)Denice could have been either a Dancer or a Night face, or a third chice, the Godhood one. 2)Ergo David could have been either also because he was her exact twin. 3)Shiva Curiachen, a night face, conquered his own addiction to electric ecstasy in 2309. 4)Ergo David should have been able to conquer his own addiction by becoming a night face....so why didn't he? "Il etait une fois un voleur et ce voleur etait Dieu." **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 07-25-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, rebecca leann smit crowley Subject: Re: david's addiction -------- I did start my thesis by stating it was sophistry and therefore flawed. It's interesting to compare Rebecca's arguments about the twins' respective willingness to live and Denise's last speech to Sedon, saying to him: 'who do you want to be?'. Sedon did not seem to be a lost case for Denice yet he died while her brother was a lost case and died by her own hands. Thus Sedon was worth saving as she tells McGee but the fate of her brother is a foregone conclusion. Why was Sedon worth saving and not her brother? I have my doubts about Sedon's death, their last words do not indicate the events to come. Sedon has feigned death before...and what happens to Dvan? "Il etait une fois un voleur et ce voleur etait Dieu." **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 07-25-94 *** **************** From: rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") To: continuing-time%umich.edu@decwrl.dec.com Subject: david's addiction -------- J.C. DuVal asks: 4)Ergo David should have been able to conquer his own addiction by becoming a night face....so why didn't he? Which is an interesting question. First off, David and Denice aren't exact twins -- they differ by at least a chromosome, and there be more to that X/Y thing than whether one is an innie or an outie, so to speak; can you say "hormones". In addition to this chromosonal disparity, their environments during their formative years were also Not the Same. But never mind all that. I contend that David lacked the will to live, that in a more than Freudian sense he really wanted to die (which is why Denice did what she did which is what David had been trying to do for a long while but hadn't quite managed yet on his own). Why? Why did Denice want to live and David die? Me, I think it's more interesting that Denice wanted to live -- I think that's what needs explaining, and I, personally, think the explanation consists of five letters: "Trent". IMO, inevitably. Rebecca Crowley rcrowley@zso.dec.com standard disclaimers apply **************** *** 07-25-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: david's addiction -------- >Why was Sedon worth saving and not her brother? I have my doubts about >Sedon's death, their last words do not indicate the events to come. Sedon >has feigned death before...and what happens to Dvan? David would *never* have dropped the habit. With anyone else, Denice would have been able to fix it so that he wouldn't want it anymore, but I think the telepaths may not be susceptible to each other's manipulations like that. We did not get to know david as well as we know Denice. For the Gift, we did see one thing that surprised me: David seemed to do more when confronted by Sedon than Denice did. (Has Denice ever started fire? We've never seen it...) Remember that Carl believed he would have been susceptible to becoming an alcoholic, if he'd been exposed to it when much younger. And maybe that's what it all boils down to: maybe David had become a wire addict before he was old / strong enough to be able to fight it (possibly even before the Gift manifested itself him him). Denice Killed David because he *wanted* to die. He was ashamed of what he had become, and ashamed that his sister saw it. His father's last words to them were that they were *better* -- and he had not shown it. (Denice, incidently, *had*. She was a Dancer, and probably a better Dancer than any of the Flame people.) Sean. **************** *** 07-26-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Whee, I read stories today! SPOILERS HERE! -------- Sean writes: >AtTitW is *not* as good as _The Armageddon Blues_, Well, right --- it is basically just a first draft of the first section. It is a pretty damn good first published story. It's hardly DKM's fault that he may be the only author ever to enlarge on a published story and make it better. >I got the feeling, however, that the story was not really what he wanted >to tell -- the narrator described the sound of an atomic explosion in >reverse, but how did it know that? It doesn't. "The author is willing to concede that he could be wrong, but adds that until such time as he is proven incorrect, he will continue to hold this opinion." (The full quote is in my quote file!) >"Realtime" is also interesting. It's apparantly set in the same >timeline as AtTitW, but something is not quite right. It was cowritten >with someone else, so that could explain it. Well, the universe is very clearly DKM's. My guess is the co-author's primary contribution was smoothing out DKM's prose. I still suspect that Prebehalla is just a pseudonym for George Scithers; basically a way of saying that he did a really serious editing job on the story. I'd love to be proven wrong, especially if the proof consisted of a few Prebehalla stories half as good as "Realtime". >I also have a problem with the Walks-Far Empire -- maintaining an >interstellar empire would be difficult enough, let alone a >cross-timeline empire... but it's mentioned only in passing, so may not >count :). It's worth noting that there is a character named Walks-Far in _The Armageddon Blues_ . . . . >I have now read all but *one* story published by DKM. I am a happy >camper. I'd read all but one story back on the summer day the postman delivered my copy of ISsfm with "Realtime". (I almost missed dinner because I was so enthralled by that story, in fact.) Today I go hunting for that Aboriginal story . . . -Sol **************** *** 07-28-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Other DKM story -------- Okay, after finally getting a lead on a DKM story I haven't read, I went out and traced down information on how to get it. (Source is the latest issue of Aboriginal.) Aboriginal Science Fiction No.24 Daniel Keys Moran Send $4.00 plus $.50 postage and handling for each copy to: Aboriginal Science Fiction Full Sets P.O. Box 2449 Woburn, MA 01888 Note that I have no connection with Aboriginal, and no idea if this really works. I'm going to send in my order tomorrow, and I'd suggest waiting for word from me for whether or not it works. I'll let everyone know whatever happens. -Sol **************** *** 08-01-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Bad Mailing Addresses -------- Sorry to bother everyone with this, but I'm getting overwhelmed by bouncing mail these days, so I need to take steps. As soon as I've sent this, I'm deleting the following people from the mailing list: wangc@cpsc.ucalgary.ca drayer@minerva.cis.yale.edu acolyte@tartarus.uwa.edu.au rsu@pro-palmtree.socal.com bm2e+@andrew.cmu.edu TCSMITH@mta.ca All have had multiple bounces in the last week. If you know any of these people, please ask them what's going on. (I don't want to lose members, but I have to correct this problem.) If you _are_ one of these, please let me know what is up. Thanks! Sol **************** *** 08-09-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: DKM Story -------- Well, this afternoon I got the issue of Aboriginal SF with the DKM story in it. (So the address I posted here works, and fairly quickly at that.) It's a fairly short story, four pages long in Aboriginal's big page format. At a risk of rushing to a quick judgement, "Given the Game" is a pretty minor story. Actually, it strikes me as a very cliched story, with minor DKMish touches which don't really do a whole lot for it. Not a bad story, but not one to get excited over. It bears no apparent direct relationship to the Continuing Time books. (I suppose it could fit in the Great Wheel of Existance, but what couldn't?) A couple of minor things seem to touch on the CT: "In the darkness near Tau Ceti, God heard their distance prayers, the music of the water creatures. It listened to their exquisite pain, to the tales they sang of death in the nets . . . " (Actually, looking back, I'm not sure of why that reminds me of the Continuing Time. Some strange path in my brain, no doubt. It wasn't the Nightface aspect, which I'll mention in a second.) And there is some talk of Players, capitalized, though frankly I don't understand what this usage has to do with the usage in the Continuing Time. Perhaps this is some sort of perversion, an echo elsewhere on the Wheel. Finally, there is the pervading atmosphere (and acceptance) of death, which reminds me of what we know of Nightface philosophy. -Sol **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM stories -------- Gack. I'm finding way too much sitting around on my harddrive for a long time waiting to be answered. Anyway, better late than never . . . Jon writes: >> Armageddon Blues, 1988. (April 1988 according to the front of my >> copy. This strikes me as wrong --- I think >> I bought my copy for half price at a used >> bookstore in April 1988.) >> Indirectly related to the Continuing Time (again, see the >> chart/map in LD), and an excellant book in its own right. > > Just what *is* the relation? Is the CT the alternate timeline that arose >in the aftermath of AB? No. The best bet for the aftermath of AB is the "Realtime" universe, where Praxcelises (Praxceli?) and humans together fight the Walks-Far Empire. If you look at the map in the back of Last Dancer, you'll see that AB and CT are both spots in the Great Wheel of Existence. That's the primary connection, though background characters and concepts tend to "leak through" the universes. (No doubt because they are near neighbors on the Wheel. :-) -Sol **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: jon leech To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon Subject: Re: DKM stories -------- Sol writes: > No. The best bet for the aftermath of AB is the "Realtime" universe, > where Praxcelises (Praxceli?) and humans together fight the Walks-Far > Empire. I've gotta dig up the stories; I only have AB and the CT books. I think what lead me down this direction were descriptions of the Unification War. In particular, I was reading more similarities between the US orbital lasers there and those in AB than I probably should have. Jon __@/ **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: jon leech To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon Subject: Re: DKM stories -------- Sol writes: > No. The best bet for the aftermath of AB is the "Realtime" universe, > where Praxcelises (Praxceli?) and humans together fight the Walks-Far > Empire. I've gotta dig up the stories; I only have AB and the CT books. I think what lead me down this direction were descriptions of the Unification War. In particular, I was reading more similarities between the US orbital lasers there and those in AB than I probably should have. Jon __@/ **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: DKM stories -------- >In particular, I was reading more similarities between the US orbital lasers >there and those in AB than I probably should have. Well, since Loos Electronics (or whatever the company's name was) were involved with both, I'm not surprised there's a similarity ;). Sean. **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: mikeo@telerama.lm.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The 'Player' in 'God of Players' -------- Perhaps a stupid question, but in what sense is the word 'player' used here? Actor and athlete are hardly appropriate, I think... One thought I'd had: earlier, in rasfw, I'd asked the question 'Why did Camber want to prevent Denice and Dvan from meeting?'. According to Storyteller, this meeting was a major victory, and a blow to Tremodian. This makes sense given the chain of events that follows; if Denice _hadn't_ met Dvan, she wouldn't have become a Dancer, would not have survived Sedon (cf the GoP's speech to her in her cell), and thus would not have lived to spawn the House of November. Without the House, Storyteller would never come to be. Am I taking that too far, or does it make sense? Mike **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: radrayer@stud.med.cornell.edu (rebecca a. drayer) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Next DKM Book -------- Sorry if this question has been asked to death, but I just signed on again to the list after my summer break Does anyone have any idea when DKM's next book will be published? I looked at Tor's electronic newsletter, and it didn't have any information. --------------- Rebecca A. Drayer Medical Student, Class of 1998 **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: The 'Player' in 'God of Players' -------- > Perhaps a stupid question, but in what sense is the word 'player' used >here? Actor and athlete are hardly appropriate, I think... Who knows? Although I tend to think that Camber is a Player in the sense that the producer-guy from _The Player_ was a player. (If you haven't seen the movie, he is hussles and gets movies put together, and makes quite a bit of money that way. He plays *people*, against each other, against threats, etc.) It is, however, quite a coincidence that Camber is a god of a word that would translate as "Player" -- and a Player is someone with more than a little bit of power in DKM's world. (And since it is such a large coincidence, and it is fiction, I doubt very much that it *is* a coincidence.) > One thought I'd had: earlier, in rasfw, I'd asked the question 'Why >did Camber want to prevent Denice and Dvan from meeting?'. As I think I said there: because Denice's life is now different, in some way. She's also managed to meet Camber -- even if only on the Crystal Plane. If Denice hadn't met Dvan, she wouldn't've been in the position she had been anyway -- a position that was responsible for her meeting Camber. Perhaps *that* was what Storyteller wanted to avoid. Denice is very uncertain. I'm not sure if she has any firm morals or ethics yet. She *seems* to be leaning towards Trent's stance about killing being wrong -- yet she is a Dancer, and killed her own brother. Her loyalties are very fluid, and shift with circumstances. Some of them she's kept: her love for Trent, her friendship with Jimmy, perhaps even her love of what's-his-name, the politician. (We know she has a child by him, and takes his last name, so we can assume they get married.) >According to >Storyteller, this meeting was a major victory, and a blow to Tremodian. It would really help to know what the Tremodian-Storyteller battle is *about*, and what the goals are. Without knowing those, it's rather difficult to decide much. Sean. **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: The 'Player' in 'God of Players' -------- mikeo@telerama.lm.com writes: > One thought I'd had: earlier, in rasfw, I'd asked the question 'Why >did Camber want to prevent Denice and Dvan from meeting?'. According to >Storyteller, this meeting was a major victory, and a blow to Tremodian. >This makes sense given the chain of events that follows; if Denice >_hadn't_ met Dvan, she wouldn't have become a Dancer, would not have >survived Sedon (cf the GoP's speech to her in her cell), and thus would >not have lived to spawn the House of November. Without the House, >Storyteller would never come to be. > Am I taking that too far, or does it make sense? sean eric fagan writes: >As I think I said there: because Denice's life is now different, in >some way. She's also managed to meet Camber -- even if only on the >Crystal Plane. > >If Denice hadn't met Dvan, she wouldn't've been in the position she had >been anyway -- a position that was responsible for her meeting Camber. >Perhaps *that* was what Storyteller wanted to avoid. This is a bit confused, I think, because Camber was the one who wanted her to avoid meeting Dvan. It seems unlikely Camber would have wanted her to avoid meeting Camber; and it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to arrange. Really there is not enough information to go on yet. If we assume Camber and Denice would have met anyway, and Denice would found House November anyway, then one possiblity is that her meeting with Dvan influenced her choice to be a Dancer. The training Camber arranged for her suggested he might have preferred her to be a Nightface, or take the third path (godhood?). If so, he took the choice she did make surprisingly well. Why assume House November would have existed either way? Because of Camber's comments on page 54 concerning how Denice's descendents make her pretty much untouchable for he and Storyteller. One interesting thing I just picked up skimming over the sections. Somehow Dvan and Denice's meeting prevents Camber from manifesting as Camber for several years. (page 53) "If you see me again it will be in the Other Place; and in that place I am a different order of person." I assume this is where Denice meets him, when he is the God of Players. Also, he implies that this is sort of a trade-off, allowing him to get protection for Trent. -Sol **************** *** 08-29-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: according to Locus -------- Bantam is not going to be publishing any DKM books at least through June '95. *sigh* Sean. **************** *** 08-30-94 *** **************** From: radrayer@stud.med.cornell.edu (rebecca a. drayer) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: according to Locus -------- Sean wrote: >Bantam is not going to be publishing any DKM books at least through June '95. >*sigh* > >Sean. Hmm. That's not what the back of TLD said. Are there any problems between DKM and his editors, or is he just taking his time? :-) --------------- Rebecca A. Drayer Medical Student, Class of 1998 Cornell University Medical College **************** *** 08-30-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: according to Locus -------- >Hmm. That's not what the back of TLD said. Are there any problems >between DKM and his editors, or is he just taking his time? :-) Well, as someone said, he moved to New York. Also, there was an earthquake (which may have been the reason he moved ;)). And I do suspect there is a problem between Bantam and DKM: for almost any other publisher, if an author had come out with the third book in a series after several years, I'd've expected the previous book, if not the previous two books, to be republished. They weren't with DKM. And _The Last Dancer_ seemed rather unpublicisized to me -- the first I knew of its publication was when I read a readers' copy a few months before general publication. And since the owner of the bookstore I go to knows how much I want DKM books, she'd've let me know about it ASAP. As I said earlier, I sent DKM a letter after I'd reread all the books, a few months ago (well, probably nine or ten months ago now ;)), and I never got a response. Maybe someone else should try it? Sean. **************** *** 08-30-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: according to Locus -------- Sean writes: >According to Locus, Bantam is not going to be publishing any DKM books >at least through June '95. *sigh* I'm assuming this means there's nothing on the forthcoming books list yet. If so, it is not the final word. As I recall last time, it only a few months before Last Dancer came out that it showed up in on Locus's list, well after many books published that ended up being published at the same time it was. So I wouldn't take a June date as authoritative until next February or March. If, on the other hand, Locus explicitly said that no book would be coming out, disregard this, and write hate letters to Bantam. -Sol **************** *** 08-31-94 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: RE: The 'Player' in 'God of Players' -------- When Sedon is imprisoned/hospitalized after being rescued from the slowtime bubble, he looks for a modern word to express the concept of 'dancer'. One of the words that comes close is 'player', especially as used to refer to very good webdancers. Perhaps Camber is god of all those who are exceptionally adept at what they do ('player' in a very general sense). In my rereadings I've been watching for references as to why Camber and Storyteller are opponents, but I haven't found much that really explains why. I get the impression though that it's largely personal, and maybe involves differing opinions of how to achieve a common goal. I don't think Camber is trying to destroy the Castanaverases, but to influence them. Camber admitted that he tried to kill Carl, but this was only to prevent a later tragedy. JimS ---------- | From: Solomon Foster | To: | Subject: The 'Player' in 'God of Players' | Date: Monday, August 29, 1994 7:59PM | | Received: by netmail using toxenix | continuing-time-errors@umich.edu Mon, 29 Aug 94 17:07:56 PDT | Received: from totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu by | netmail.microsoft.com with SMTP (5.65/25-eef) | id AA06960; Mon, 29 Aug 94 17:07:54 -0700 | Received: by totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.3) | with X.500 id UAA16205; Mon, 29 Aug 1994 20:03:42 -0400 | Received: by totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.3) | with X.500 id UAA16197; Mon, 29 Aug 1994 20:03:39 -0400 | Received: from dip.eecs.umich.edu by totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.3) | with ESMTP id UAA16185; Mon, 29 Aug 1994 20:03:34 -0400 | Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by dip.eecs.umich.edu | (8.6.8/8.6.4) with SMTP id TAA07812 for | ; Mon, 29 Aug 1994 19:59:22 -0400 | Message-Id: <199408292359.TAA07812@dip.eecs.umich.edu> | X-Authentication-Warning: dip.eecs.umich.edu: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol | | mikeo@telerama.lm.com writes: | > One thought I'd had: earlier, in rasfw, I'd asked the question 'Why | >did Camber want to prevent Denice and Dvan from meeting?'. According to | >Storyteller, this meeting was a major victory, and a blow to Tremodian. | >This makes sense given the chain of events that follows; if Denice | >_hadn't_ met Dvan, she wouldn't have become a Dancer, would not have | >survived Sedon (cf the GoP's speech to her in her cell), and thus would | >not have lived to spawn the House of November. Without the House, | >Storyteller would never come to be. | > Am I taking that too far, or does it make sense? | | sean eric fagan writes: | >As I think I said there: because Denice's life is now different, in | >some way. She's also managed to meet Camber -- even if only on the | >Crystal Plane. | > | >If Denice hadn't met Dvan, she wouldn't've been in the position she had | >been anyway -- a position that was responsible for her meeting Camber. | >Perhaps *that* was what Storyteller wanted to avoid. | | This is a bit confused, I think, because Camber was the one who wanted | her to avoid meeting Dvan. It seems unlikely Camber would have wanted | her to avoid meeting Camber; and it doesn't seem like it would be that | hard to arrange. | | Really there is not enough information to go on yet. If we assume | Camber and Denice would have met anyway, and Denice would found House | November anyway, then one possiblity is that her meeting with Dvan | influenced her choice to be a Dancer. The training Camber arranged for | her suggested he might have preferred her to be a Nightface, or take the | third path (godhood?). If so, he took the choice she did make | surprisingly well. | | Why assume House November would have existed either way? Because of | Camber's comments on page 54 concerning how Denice's descendents make | her pretty much untouchable for he and Storyteller. | | One interesting thing I just picked up skimming over the sections. | Somehow Dvan and Denice's meeting prevents Camber from manifesting as | Camber for several years. (page 53) "If you see me again it will be in | the Other Place; and in that place I am a different order of person." I | assume this is where Denice meets him, when he is the God of Players. | Also, he implies that this is sort of a trade-off, allowing him to get | protection for Trent. | | -Sol | | **************** *** 09-01-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: technology marches one step closer to DKM -------- A while back, I wrote a note about the paint that generated heat when an electric current was run through it (and commented that if heat can be generated, can visible light be far behind?). Previous to that, in the last letter I sent to DKM in fact, I included some information about General Magic's scripting language, which they say was designed so that one could create "drones" that go out and do things for you -- like hunt through databases, or make reservations, or other similar things. My comment to DKM was that this sounded very much like how Images started out, before evolving to their present form. This bit is taken from comp.risks, and is similar to the GM thing. Note his comments, and then think about what Players do, and how they and replicant AI's live and do what they do... Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 12:45:46 -0600 (MDT) From: "Rob Slade, the famous sleep deprivation experiment" Subject: Risks of client search tools (the WWWorm turns, and returns, ...) I noticed the following on net-happenings as an explanation of why a promised World Wide Web search tool was not released. It doesn't give full details, but, for those who can read between the lines, you can see that such a local client search tool would consume enormous amounts of bandwidth. I'm glad that the developer had the good sense not to pursue it. "Some searches were not meant to be meddled with, Dr. Lemieux!" :-) (btw, for those without W3 who want to access the document cited, send mail to listproc@www0.cern.ch with the command: www http://web.nexor.co.uk/mak/doc/robots/robots.html in the body of the message.) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 19:03:53 -0400 (EDT) SENDER: Mac WWW Worm Subject: [announce] Mac WWW Worm First, sorry for my french colleagues for this english answer. I just didn't want to write it twice... ---------- Here are my presents thoughts about that: 1- Due to the net traffic that would be produce by such an easy-to-use 'bot, I first decided that it should _never_ be widely released. 2- My Mac WWW worm was an engine designed to search for specific topics. He was downloading lots of pages, but kept informations only about a little portion of them. This way there's a lot of wasting in net resource. So, if you were striving to get such a tool, you should consider using one of the publicly accessible WWW Database. 3- Everyone running a bot without letting other people acces the data is _wasting_ resources, and should not be permitted to do that... Anyone interested in the subject of WWW Robot should consider reading the following document: http://web.nexor.co.uk/mak/doc/robots/robots.html Before flaming me for not releasing the 'bot, read every thing you can find under that URL. ---------- Beside that, the MacWWW worm program still contains lots of neat HyperCard script that can be easily recycled for any internet based material... I would accept to share all this material with any other HC-minded people. Be aware that building net program is not a little thing. Even if HC permit it to be really easy, you should always keep in mind that the internet is a _public_ network. Don't waste other's resources... Anyway, thanks for your interest. Sebastien Lemieux, dept. biol. lemieuse@alize.ERE.UMontreal.CA http://alize.ere.umontreal.ca:8001/~lemieuse/ Ce message a ete reposte par le reposteur TCL Pour info: lemieuse@ere.umontreal.ca [Very lemieusing! PGN] ------------------------------ **************** *** 09-01-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Baby-chasers -------- Well, with the upcoming UN convention on population control, all I could think was "Baby-chasers"... This is no comment on the agenda of the convention, mind you, just an interesting sideline, as is Clipper and the LINK... Does Moran know something we don't? :-) **************** *** 10-12-94 *** **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- Having not seen much traffic on the list for a while, I thought I would bring up a subject that was mentioned by DKM himself in the great post a long time back. It was mentioned that at the time there was the possibility the R. Talsorian Games might be doing an adaptation of the some of the stuff (either from the Long Run, and Emerald Eyes or of stuff done after the Long Run). I feel that a better company for either Bantam or DKM himself to approach would be Steve Jackson Games. I feel that GURPS would be able to give a truer feel to the continuing time. We have handy such lovely items as GURPS Time Travel, GURPS Psionics, GURPS Ultra Tech. From the comments I have seen and the supplements I have seen and own (Yes I own some GURPS, but I also own about 30 other systems also) the writers of the adapted supplements have always done a good job in staying true to the original authors intent. So far SJG has done Brin's "Uplift", Farmer's "Riverworld", Smith's "Lensmen", Robinson's "Callahans". I can picture more in my head but you get the idea. I think it would be quite enjoyable to run a campaign through the Time Wars. Well enough for now. Comments, Questions? Chris Knight **************** *** 10-12-94 *** **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: s@prism.nmt.edu, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: More CT gaming stuff... -------- With the previous letter in mind, a number of years back I had the oppurtunity to write up and run Trent in a game friend was running. We were both fans of the books (all 3 at the time), and tried to do justice to the character without overbalancing the campaign (200 pt characters if you have looked though/played GURPS). I thought some might be interested in the list of skills that I (and the GM) had assigned to Trent (Prior to the The Last Dancer coming out). If you think of some that he and I hadn't (and I've read TLR and EE multiple times since then, but only found the char sheet recently) Artist Dancing Acrobatics Running Judo Karate Guns(water) Guns(Sliver) First Aid Area Know(Fringe) Comp. Oper. Elec. Oper.(comp) Elec Oper (sec.sys.)Comp. Prog Electronics Genetics Literature Math Acting Diplomacy Leadership Disguise Forgery Lockpicking Streetwise Traps Comp. Hack. Deck. Op. Engineering(genetic)Language(french) Heraldry Language(english) Free Fall Vacc. Suit Fast Draw Area Know (moon) Area Know (net) Electronics(net) Mechanics (net) Yeah a pretty long list, though at this point I think that the only one that I couldn't point out a specific example would be the heraldry. Comments, Questions? If anyone out there is personally interested in the write-up I have for the characters we can personally discuss the advantages, disadvantages, quirks that the GM and I decided on. That is unless there is a sudden clamor for it on the list itself. I haven't done any work on Denice as I don't have the psionics handbook, nor the supers book. I have done some preliminary thinking as to the PKF elite, but again the Ultra-tech sourcebook is not in my possession, (though hopefully with the next paycheck...) Chris Knight **************** *** 10-12-94 *** **************** From: "john r. snead" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: More CT gaming stuff... -------- Well Chris, since the list is rather dead (with all of us mourning the lack of any more DKM books this year), why don't you post the stats, advantages and such for Trent, and perhaps some of the rest of us who are also familiar with GURPS can do the same. So, can anyone think of another system which would be good for CT gaming? I've played around with adapting it to the White Wolf Storyteller system some. -Heron jsnead@netcom.com **************** *** 10-15-94 *** **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent stuff for CT gaming in GURPS -------- Well since I was asked I'm going to post stats, adv., disadv. With this post I will just post the advantages and disadvantages (I want to have a GURPS basic book in fron of me so that I can relate the Stats to something real as opposed to just numbers.) Advantages: (with some explanation) (and points for such) -------------------------------------------------------------------- 15: Natural Net Running - The GM and I came up with this as Trent's answer to the lack of telepathy. 15: Patron = Ring - It's kinda nice to know someone who has been around for 40,000 experiantly(sp?), and the restraunts he can get you into :) Also good for plot hooks. 15: Combat Reflexs - Comes from being genetically perfect, along with later the inskin. 105: Genegineered - DM's creation. We couldn't find anything on genegineering in any of the source books that we had access to at the time (I believe that he didn't have Ultra-Tech at the time, so I don't know if there is anything in there on the subject). This enable Trent to have better stats then what was initially paid for (the cost is the difference between what was paid for and the actual stats) 10: Reputation +2 (Free Luna) - After the LINK caper, and the Spacebase One/Media Event, this was decided on as opposed to something more general like "Anyone not involved with the PKF" 30: Nural Interface - The inskin itself, this was nice cause Trent didn't need to carry a pointboard, or handheld that could get lost. Disadvantages (again with some explaination, and points) ---------------------------------------------------------------- -15: Pacificism: Cannot Kill - There are two levels mentioned in GURPS, won't kill unless absolutely necessary, and can't kill. The GM and I decided and the later was more likely though we might have comeup with something else. It should be obvious to anyone who might have read TLR where this comes from. -20 Enemies (?) - All that is written down on the char. sheet is Enemies. I was thinking it over the other evening and while Trent does have the DataWatch, and the PKF specifically, along with the Unification in t general as enemies it is difficult to quantify them in game terms. It would be quite easy to take 50 or more points from this disadvantage (especially after the LINK) but that would lower the chance of survival for a Trent in a campaign (as is what I was doing). I think that it was decided that Mohammad Vance with the backing of the PKF elite was what was decided on in the end for the PC. It would be quite easy to write up in a sourcebook way to give Trent 50+ pts. as he won't be around much to interact with the PC's (he's in the belt, which is why he has survived the disadvantage). -10 Compulsive Type Lying - I think that this not as bad as Compulsive Lying(-15?). He lies well, and believable thats about all. He is also, the only word I can think of is brazen, about his lying. -5: Stubborness - When he sets out to do somethin he does it. Sometimes to the detriment to himself, and others. -20: Secret (Special) - Trent the Uncatchable, and Castanveres kid. This was one that was for the campaign. Seems kinda silly for a thief to go around with everyone knowing whom he was. It also was a life or death secret. If someone found it out it could get him simply killed. -10: Overconfidence - Very sure of himself, to the point, obviously of overconfidence. -10: Reputation -2 (PKF) - After LINK, Spacebase One, Emile, the media conference, etc. -5: Generous - Yes this is a disadvantage in GURPS, you want to give money to worthy causes (feed people in Trent's case, 375,000 CU to World Food Bank, before he was 18, out of 2 mil. CU) -5: Intolerence (Fat People) - Yes, I did give this to him, from the encounter in the elevator at the beginning of TLR, and comments given later in the book. I think this stems from the hunger commitment also. -10: Vow x2 (Bring down Unification, Find David) - Do I really need to explain these? This means that when he can he will further these two goals, to the exception of other goals, with limits (the talk he has with the female Player in the TLD is one such exception to this one of the Vows) Quirks (quirks are -1 point characteristics that make for good RP) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -1: Hates Fanatics - Says, and acts as such throughout TLR (and TLD) -1: Joker - He loves playing a good joke (media, replacing file, encounter w/ wathcdog) -1: Tatoo - Long stem rose, and you know how you can ... :) -2: Duty - (merely 6 or less of 3d6 at beginning of play session) given for the people that he escaped from the Fringe with, along with Denice. Enough for now, as this has turned out longer then I though it would. Chris Knight cknight@nmt.edu who has very little pronoun trouble... **************** *** 10-15-94 *** **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Additional possibilities... -------- Having gotten home and looked through the GURPS basic set book, I realize that there are other possibilities for advantages, and disadvatages for a sourcebook write-up of Trent. The following are given for consideration (and yes some of these were considered at the char sheet write up, but the point value would have been prohibitive) Advantages : Acute hearing; at least +1 possibly more. Acute Vision; also at least +1, but may have limitation of concentration required. Absolute Timing; Alertness; The Above four should all come from the inskin that Trent has, (and may infact be part of the write up, see Nueral interface) The degree for the the acute might be variable (see Trent's examination of the temple on the moon) It may be possible that he could also acuire Acute Taste and Smell at some level above 0. It might also be possible to give these to Trent prior to the inskin job, as he was genetically engineered from the ground up. Attractiveness; More then once (and especially by the bio-sculpter, whose trade is in beauty) the Trent is beautiful. Charisma; this might be an alternative to the Attractiveness, or in addition to it. Eidetic Memory; After the inskin, definitely the true photographic. Possible before he might have the general concentration type. High Pain Threshold; this is iffy, as if is rare that we see Trent in any real pain (ex: jumping off of Old Jack's to escape Emile, and doing something to his knee (what we don't know) and still running as fast as he can to the car; the fight with Vance after the LINK; crashing on the moon) Lightning calculator; After the inskin. Longevity; This is another tricky one. We haven't seen any of the genegineered last long enough to find out if this applies. Being built from the ground up they (Trent, Denice esp.) are less much less likely to succumb to heriditry diseases, and they might be much healthier then norm (htis can be compensated in the Stats though) Mathematical Ability; Maybe after the inskin, not really sure. Night Vision; After the inskin and the image processing (again see the temple viewing on the moon). Peripheral Vision; another possibility with the addition of the inskin. Rapid Healing; a product of being built gene by gene, see the arguement for longevity. Strong Will; There are a number of times where Trent keeps his cool long after most others would have given up(esp. Spacebase One, and psuedo-captured by Vance on the Moon). Unusual Background; This I think was the original reason being the Advantage of Genetically Engineered for the write-up. Suffice to say that he does have one, and it could be an advantage, or disadvantage depending on how you look at it. Allies; Denice, the Citystates, SpaceFarer, Jimmy, Ring, Johnny Johnny (before the inskin), Ralf. Well that's it from the Basic Set, he might be elligible for other that might be in Cyberpunk, Space, Ultra-Tech, High-Tech, but seeing as how I don't have any of those (yet!), I'll leave those for others. Now onto the Disadvantages also possible Social Stigma; "He's a Castanaveras", PKF/Unification would love to get there hands on him permanetly, outlaw (hero in some eyes, villian in others) Youth; depends on when you start a Trent character (prior to age 18) or when he is encountered. (There are very few phyisical disadv. that he will have (unless something major happens to him after TLD)) (sidenote: My girlfriend and I were discussing the type of musculature that the Castanaveras would have to have to be able to seemingly do some of the things (running at ~45 km/hr after being injured), any comments?) Addicition; Data-Starve as Trent mentions after being in the holding cell for 4 days. This might be available to any who choose to be players. AKA Player's Syndrome. Code Of Honor; You decide. Impulsiveness; Maybe, maybe not ( I would tend to with the name under which he travels to Spacebase One, though that might be the joker in him) Dependents: Johnny, Johnny, Jimmy, et al. (Or a Sense of Duty towards them instead) Enemies; I discussed this before, but after looking at the description in GURPS, Trent could easily qualify for 80-120 for this while in Unification controlled territory. His enemy is an entire government, which could appear all the time, or even quite often. Trent seems to graduate to higher (and more powerful enemies) as TLR progresses. He starts with Emile (-10 pts), moves up to Mohammad Vance (w/ PKF) (-20 pts.), then up to the PKF (w/ MV, after the media conference) (-30), and finally up to the entire Unification (PKF, DataWatch, BioSciences, Traffic, hell he probably even pissed off the Ministry of Pop. Control somehow) (-40). Even the freq. that they show up gets worse (more often) as time goes by. That's all for the disadv. list possibilities from the Basic Set. Any other suggestions from those with Space, Cyberpunk, Ultra- or High-tech? Any suggestions for any of the other characters? Denice after TLD would be as formidible as Trent after TLR (even before marrying Ripper (think Major Ally)). Chris Knight cknight@nmt.edu wondering what he would do with a three armed boy.... **************** *** 10-15-94 *** **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Additional (again... sorry) -------- (this is a repost due to my reading it again after posting it ... sorry about the bad formatting on the original post.) Having gotten home and looked through the GURPS basic set book, I realize that there are other possibilities for advantages, and disadvatages for a sourcebook write-up of Trent. The following are given for consideration (and yes some of these were considered at the char sheet write up, but the point value would have been prohibitive) Advantages : Acute hearing; at least +1 possibly more. Acute Vision; also at least +1, but may have limitation of concentration required. Absolute Timing; Alertness; The Above four should all come from the inskin that Trent has, (and may infact be part of the write up, see Nueral interface) The degree for the the acute might be variable (see Trent's examination of the temple on the moon) It may be possible that he could also acuire Acute Taste and Smell at some level above 0. It might also be possible to give these to Trent prior to the inskin job, as he was genetically engineered from the ground up. Attractiveness; More then once (and especially by the bio-sculpter, whose trade is in beauty) the Trent is beautiful. Charisma; this might be an alternative to the Attractiveness, or in addition to it. Eidetic Memory; After the inskin, definitely the true photographic. Possible before he might have the general concentration type. High Pain Threshold; this is iffy, as if is rare that we see Trent in any real pain (ex: jumping off of Old Jack's to escape Emile, and doing something to his knee (what we don't know) and still running as fast as he can to the car; the fight with Vance after the LINK; crashing on the moon) Lightning calculator; After the inskin. Longevity; This is another tricky one. We haven't seen any of the genegineered last long enough to find out if this applies. Being built from the ground up they (Trent, Denice esp.) are less much less likely to succumb to heriditry diseases, and they might be much healthier then norm (htis can be compensated in the Stats though) Mathematical Ability; Maybe after the inskin, not really sure. Night Vision; After the inskin and the image processing (again see the temple viewing on the moon). Peripheral Vision; another possibility with the addition of the inskin. Rapid Healing; a product of being built gene by gene, see the arguement for longevity. Strong Will; There are a number of times where Trent keeps his cool long after most others would have given up(esp. Spacebase One, and psuedo-captured by Vance on the Moon). Unusual Background; This I think was the original reason being the Advantage of Genetically Engineered for the write-up. Suffice to say that he does have one, and it could be an advantage, or disadvantage depending on how you look at it. Allies; Denice, the Citystates, SpaceFarer, Jimmy, Ring, Johnny Johnny (before the inskin), Ralf. Well that's it from the Basic Set, he might be elligible for other that might be in Cyberpunk, Space, Ultra-Tech, High-Tech, but seeing as how I don't have any of those (yet!), I'll leave those for others. Now onto the Disadvantages also possible: Social Stigma; "He's a Castanaveras", PKF/Unification would love to get there hands on him permanetly, outlaw (hero in some eyes, villian in others) Youth; depends on when you start a Trent character (prior to age 18) or when he is encountered. (There are very few phyisical disadv. that he will have (unless something major happens to him after TLD)) (sidenote: My girlfriend and I were discussing the type of musculature that the Castanaveras would have to have to be able to seemingly do some of the things (running at ~45 km/hr after being injured), any comments?) Addicition; Data-Starve as Trent mentions after being in the holding cell for 4 days. This might be available to any who choose to be players. AKA Player's Syndrome. Code Of Honor; You decide. Impulsiveness; Maybe, maybe not ( I would tend to with the name under which he travels to Spacebase One, though that might be the joker in him) Dependents: Johnny, Johnny, Jimmy, et al. (Or a Sense of Duty towards them instead) Enemies; I discussed this before, but after looking at the description in GURPS, Trent could easily qualify for 80-120 for this while in Unification controlled territory. His enemy is an entire government, which could appear all the time, or even quite often. Trent seems to graduate to higher (and more powerful enemies) as TLR progresses. He starts with Emile (-10 pts), moves up to Mohammad Vance (w/ PKF) (-20 pts.), then up to the PKF (w/ MV, after the media conference) (-30), and finally up to the entire Unification (PKF, DataWatch, BioSciences, Traffic, hell he probably even pissed off the Ministry of Pop. Control somehow) (-40). Even the freq. that they show up gets worse (more often) as time goes by. That's all for the disadv. list possibilities from the Basic Set. Any other suggestions from those with Space, Cyberpunk, Ultra- or High-tech? Any suggestions for any of the other characters? Denice after TLD would be as formidible as Trent after TLR (even before marrying Ripper (think Major Ally)). Chris Knight cknight@nmt.edu wondering what he would do with a three armed boy.... **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- Chris Knight writes: >It was mentioned that at the time there was the possibility the R. >Talsorian Games might be doing an adaptation of the some of the stuff >(either from the Long Run, and Emerald Eyes or of stuff done after the >Long Run). I feel that a better company for either Bantam or DKM >himself to approach would be Steve Jackson Games. "john r. snead" writes: >Well Chris, since the list is rather dead (with all of us mourning the >lack of any more DKM books this year), why don't you post the stats, >advantages and such for Trent, and perhaps some of the rest of us who >are also familiar with GURPS can do the same. >So, can anyone think of another system which would be good for CT >gaming? I've played around with adapting it to the White Wolf >Storyteller system some. As a GURPS fan from way back, I think GURPS would be an excellent choice. On the other hand, these days I would prefer something similar to the Amber system. (Actually, I think the Storyteller system might fit the bill, but don't know anything about it.) GURPS is great if you want realistic, but freeform systems seem to handle cinematic, fantastic stuff better. DKM's books, with their flamboyant, frequently amazingly powerful characters seems a perfect fit for the latter. (In fact, a decent hunk of my current Amber campaign has been set in the Continuing Time. Trent has yet to be heard from, but Camber, Storyteller, Ralf, and ever so briefly Denice have made appearances.) Having said that, I loved seeing the GURPS Trent writeup. Since reading the Long Run, I've never been able to look at the "Cannot Kill" disadvantage without thinking of Trent. I'd be interested in seeing other characters writen up. And I think (possibly incorrectly) if you write them up carefully, without too much obscure gaming jargon, they will be interesting to the entire list. (The jargon mention is hypothetical --- the Trent post did a good job of explaining what was meant to non-GURPS gamers, I thought.) Final note --- if you disagree and don't want to see this stuff on the list, please drop me personal e-mail. If there is a sizable objection, we can take this discussion off the list. Likewise, this isn't the place to discuss the merits of various gaming systems, so if you want to talk about those, let's do it via private e-mail. -Sol colomon@eecs.umich.edu **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon Subject: Re: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- I think that the "Mage" system (White Wolf) would work pretty well, although I haven't tried it... **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon Subject: Re: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- I think that the "Mage" system (White Wolf) would work pretty well, although I haven't tried it... **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon, "patrick g. bridges" Subject: Re: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- Personally, I think OTE is the best system for any characters from literature, after all, it most closely follows the general conception/development of characters, rather than fighting the mechanics. -- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon, "patrick g. bridges" Subject: Re: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- Personally, I think OTE is the best system for any characters from literature, after all, it most closely follows the general conception/development of characters, rather than fighting the mechanics. -- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon Subject: Re: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- I think that the "Mage" system (White Wolf) would work pretty well, although I haven't tried it... **************** *** 10-17-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu, colomon, "patrick g. bridges" Subject: Re: Gaming and the Continuing Time -------- Personally, I think OTE is the best system for any characters from literature, after all, it most closely follows the general conception/development of characters, rather than fighting the mechanics. -- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 10-19-94 *** **************** From: cknight@prism.nmt.edu (chris-top-her) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Confussion ... -------- As the gaming thread is moving right along (heavy sarcasm) ... I just finished The Last Dancer, and I am mightly confused. Near the end of the book, Denice is on a bus heading somewhere. While on the bus she meets someone who she could never meet. The "woman" who supposedly started the worship of the goddess in pre-Hellanic Greece. This should be impossible. This should be impossible. The only woman of any longevity who was with the exiles was the Keeper, who was killed. None of the Dancers werefemale, nor were any of the Shields. Were the breeders long lived? Anyone have any good ideas? Chris Knight **************** *** 10-19-94 *** **************** From: "mike o\\'malley" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, chris-top-her Subject: Re: Confussion ... -------- On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Chris-top-her wrote: > As the gaming thread is moving right along (heavy sarcasm) ... > > I just finished The Last Dancer, and I am mightly confused. > > > Near the end of the book, Denice is on a bus heading somewhere. While on > the bus she meets someone who she could never meet. The "woman" who > supposedly started the worship of the goddess in pre-Hellanic Greece. This > should be impossible. > > This should be impossible. The only woman of any longevity who was with > the exiles was the Keeper, who was killed. None of the Dancers > werefemale, nor were any of the Shields. Were the breeders long lived? > > Anyone have any good ideas? > > Chris Knight > As I understood it, _all_ the Flame People were functionally immortal, due to genetic manipulation. On another note, who was the first shivata? The boy Mica, who killed the Keeper? One of the students of Indo? Technically, Indo himself wasn't a shivata, but he was certainly responsible for shiabre... Mike **************** *** 10-20-94 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Confussion ... -------- I think they were all (effectively) immortal. I actually liked this character quite a lot. It seemed so perfect to me. She would have had a very realistic chance of surviving the endless War of Retribution, because none of the Shield thought of women as being persons, and thus would not have bothered to try to find and kill any such as her. JimS ---------- | From: "MIke O\\'Malley" | | On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Chris-top-her wrote: | | > As the gaming thread is moving right along (heavy sarcasm) ... | > | > I just finished The Last Dancer, and I am mightly confused. | > | > | > Near the end of the book, Denice is on a bus heading somewhere. While on | > the bus she meets someone who she could never meet. The "woman" who | > supposedly started the worship of the goddess in pre-Hellanic Greece. This | > should be impossible. | > | > This should be impossible. The only woman of any longevity who was with | > the exiles was the Keeper, who was killed. None of the Dancers | > werefemale, nor were any of the Shields. Were the breeders long lived? | > | > Anyone have any good ideas? | > | > Chris Knight | > | As I understood it, _all_ the Flame People were functionally immortal, | due to genetic manipulation. | On another note, who was the first shivata? The boy Mica, who killed | the Keeper? One of the students of Indo? | Technically, Indo himself wasn't a shivata, but he was certainly | responsible for shiabre... | Mike | | **************** *** 10-20-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: The Continuing Search...for DKM info/books -------- Hello there, everyone. Things were quiet for a long while, but the recent gaming and confusion threads have got my interest up again. I got in contact with Bantam, checking about new release info or anything on the earlier books. As usual, the customer help people were most UN-helpful. No information at all...zip, zero, nada. Only possibly useful bit was a recommendation that I check with their New York office to see if DKM is even under contract with them anymore. Does anyone have any info about DKM's recent activities? We were rumored to have a book or two on the way this year, which has (to all appearances) fallen through completely. I seem to remember something a while ago about him moving, but I don't recall what exactly was said. IS he even with Bantam any longer? Is he even alive? Anybody got any info at all? AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGH! (I expect you know how I feel!) I hate getting left hanging like this, especially since it seemed things were looking up after The Last Dancer came out. I was hoping that things were going to move along (at least kind of) smoothly after that happened. Windsor (Thanks in advance for any info at all!) **************** *** 10-22-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: The Continuing Search...for DKM info/books -------- > Does anyone have any info about DKM's recent activities? We were >rumored to have a book or two on the way this year, which has (to all >appearances) fallen through completely. I seem to remember something a >while ago about him moving, but I don't recall what exactly was said. IS >he even with Bantam any longer? Is he even alive? Anybody got any info >at all? I don't have any information, but I'd like to add another specific request. Does anyone know his current mailing address? I'm thinking I'd like to buy myself the Long Run screenplay for Christmas, but I don't have a current address for DKM. -Sol colomon@eecs.umich.edu **************** *** 10-23-94 *** **************** From: simon tak lam tong To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Let Bantam how we feel -------- I suggest everyone on the mailing list to write a letter to Bantam at least once a month or even twice a month to urge them to reissue EE and TLR. It doesn't have to be a long letter, just a brief note or postcard will do. Once they realise how the customer feel and there is money to be made, they might listen. I have sent them a couple of postcards already to let them know how annoyed we are and I'll continue to do so until they listen. So if you really want to see them reissued, not to mention helping DKM to get a fair go, start sending Bantam letters and let them know. I CAN't do this on my own. Simon Tong Melbourne, Australia P.S. If anyone finds out DKM is not with Bantam anymore, please let the list know, I don't want to keep barking up the wrong tree. **************** *** 11-17-94 *** **************** From: simon tak lam tong To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Letters to Bantam -------- I sent a similar letter to the list a few weeks ago and didn't receive any reply, which made me wonder if it had gone to the list at all. So I'm trying again. If you are annoyed with Bantam for not keeping Daniel Keys Moran's _Tales of The Continuing Time_ series in print, then please join me in a letter-writing campaign. I want to let Bantam know that :- a) There is a substantial number of people out there who has read _The Last Dancer_, and want to read all the other novels in the series. b) It is unacceptable to advertise his other books on the blub of _The Last Dancer_, but not republishing them. That is no way to treat its customers. c) Bantam should support its authors by making sure previous books in a series are available when a sequel comes out. It is deplorable for Bantam not to do so. d) Most importantly, there are many, many Moran fans out there, and there is money to be made if only the books are available. #### If ENOUGH people write in, *maybe* they'll pay attention. #### If you can't be bothered composing a letter, e-mail me, I am drafting a letter that everyone can use. Here is the address :- Bantam Books 1540 Broadway, New York, New York 10036 **************** *** 11-17-94 *** **************** From: joel isaac singer To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dkm mailing list) Subject: List -------- unsubscribe **************** *** 11-17-94 *** **************** From: charles clark x-sender: cmclark@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu To: dkm mailing list , joel isaac singer Subject: Re: List -------- On Thu, 17 Nov 1994, Joel Isaac Singer wrote: > unsubscribe You sent it to the right address the first time. -- cmclark "... another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise." -- Elaine Risley **************** *** 11-20-94 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Song- Dancer in the Darkness Reply-To: ap007@Freenet.HSC.Colorado.EDU -------- Dancer in the Darkness Lyrics & Music: Maureen S. O'Brien On a crystal-black plain, flicker twisted candle-flames of blue. She's a Lord of House November, and the dreams she sees are true. And she Dances in the darkness in a pillar of pure Flame, And her Dancing cuts the darkness like a claim. CH: Dancer in the darkness, Living for the Light. Moving like the morning, knows the face of night. Gifted with November -- taking us to spring. I should Dance your story. I can only sing. She's a woman. She's a wonder. She's befriended; she's alone. She enjoys the art of Killing and she loathes the death she's known. She is forced to find a path untrod for forty thousand years -- Little wonder that the Dancer treads her tears. CH: BR: In a city called Ascension (It is empty as a tomb) Stand before the Lord of Players as she chooses her own doom. On the one hand is the golden Flame whose heart is black & cold. On the other is the nothingness one sickens to behold... So she calls herself a dream of life, and he armors her in Flame And finally the Dancer finds her Name. Now she Dances in the darkness, and she Dances through the land; And her Dance is work and weapon as she serves the Light's command. And her emerald eyes are gleaming, for as priest and judge of heart, The Dancer turns her burns into her art. CH: -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 11-21-94 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Mahliya Kutura Reply-To: ap007@Freenet.HSC.Colorado.EDU -------- Does the list like Mahliya Kutura? If she were recording now, would you buy her albums? Does the list like the Armageddon Blues Band? And in general, does the list like Moran's poetry\songs in his books? [This part of the list likes them very much, and is frustrated that she can't quite pin his style down enough to imitate it....] -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.HSC.colorado.edu "You must begin printing books again." **************** *** 11-21-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" , "maureen s. obrien" Subject: Re: Song- Dancer in the Darkness -------- This is truly excellent stuff! Keep it up, by all means. But do you mind if I kibitz a little? in the first stanza, you wrote: >On a crystal-black plain, flicker > twisted candle-flames of blue. >She's a Lord of House November, > and the dreams she sees are true. >And she Dances in the darkness > in a pillar of pure Flame, >And her Dancing cuts the darkness like a claim. Now, I may be handicapped by not hearing the music you have scored for the song (do you have an .au/.wav/.snd file available for retreival?), but I think the last line could be improoooved by changing it to: And her Dancing cuts the darkness with the Fire she has tamed. This of course changes the meter of the stanza, and perhaps of the whole song. I was thinking of some more changes, but I'll wait and see how you respond to the blitherings of this amateur before trying anything else. Keep up the good work! -- David S. **************** *** 11-27-94 *** **************** From: roderick su To: continuing time list Subject: This is a test -------- please ignore, this is a test [ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ] [----------------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman'' ] [ rsu@primnet.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ] **************** *** 11-29-94 *** **************** From: roderick su To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: It's now near the end of 94 -------- I wonder where is Lord November that was promised about 2 years ago??? [ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ] [----------------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman'' ] [ rsu@primnet.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ] **************** *** 11-29-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: It's now near the end of 94 -------- >I wonder where is Lord November that was promised about 2 years ago??? It was promised for '94, wasn't it? Or late '93 anyway... so it's only a year late. Unfortunately, it's past 5PM EST, so I can't call Bantam and ask. Maybe I'll remember to do that tomorrow. I have sent two letters to DKM c/o Bantam, and included a self-addressed stamped envelope each time; I have never gotten a response. Maybe it's me; I've asked other people to try, but nobody has (or at least, nobody's told me if they have), so I don't know. And, yes, I'm very disappointed; I keep asking my bookseller if there are any new DKM books on the way, and never am told yes :(. Sean.